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Been on the hunt for an inexpensive 944 for the past few months and just came across a well below market value 86 Turbo. Being sold from a dealer, has some recent repairs on its carfax from them:
Front crankshaft oil seal replaced
Air filter replaced
Drive belts checked
Power steering fluid leak checked
The issue that comes into play is the mileage inconsistency. Last records show around 77k in 2004, then back to 27k in 2019. Estimated 100k miles not an issue for me.
Obviously this inconsistency is bringing down the value - but does not bother me too much if it is in running condition.
Is this a bad idea? I would have a PPI done regardless, but only if I was close to making an offer.
Let me know any thoughts, can provide more details if needed. Thanks!
Specifically to 944s (as in plural not the 944S), I'm a dilettante here, though I have some insight based on what I've learned on mine thus far and life experience with other cars.
First, odometers seem to be a chronic problem in these cars. If you aren't looking for a condition #1 investment grade car; mileage is, in the grand scheme of things, just a number.
If it is a car running and driving as it should, that is a good start.
Next, how much risk can you afford? If you want an extra car for some weekend fun: read on. If you're trying to convince your wife a bottom of the market 30+ year old turbo Porsche is the best way to get the kids to school and you to work every day, ummm...stop doing that: read on only if you can afford a divorce.
Timing belt, rollers and water pump: receipts or it didn't happen. When I did mine, Lindsey Racing had the best price on a belt and roller kit, ECS Tuning for a Geba waterpump. That is all about $500 just in parts. This will need to be done in five years or less.
The clutch kit is the most expensive I've ever seen for a car, upwards of $700 in parts. My Ferrari is cheaper.
A PPI is a good investment, but cost to purchase price can be a silly ratio. If you can test drive and it handles well, tracks straight, power comes on as it should and there are no funny noises, you may be OK. Budget for wear items in the first few years: ball joints, tie rods, brake pads, tires.
Now, it's story time, so strap in if you like: When I bought my 308 ten years ago I got all the "don't buy without a PPI" and "must have service records since new" input; meh. I didn't get a PPI and the only records I had were for a recent major service (belts, rollers, valve adjustment, fluids, general going over of major systems). To me, the price was right and it looked like I could get at least a year of driving out of it before it needed any significant investment. I took it for a test drive, it drove well and pulled hard to an RPM the owner showed a visual discomfort with (though not exceeding factory specifications). Ultimately, I was satisfied it didn't have any immediate needs, so I bought it. Here I am ten years later and my major expenses have been elective. I did a full belt job, refreshed the cooling system, and rebuilt the air conditioning. To date, I think I've spent more trying to get my 944S running than I have on my 308, and my 308 has been autocrossing since I bought it and has performed respectably at Watkins Glenn and Summit Point this past year. Since I bought it though, the 308 has made the transition from a bottom of depreciation used anecdote to a last of the analog classics collectible and tripled in price. So, in having from what I can tell is one of four '85 Euro GTBs in America, I've decided I'd rather not bin a $70k car at the track, so I bought a 944S for that job. To be fair, I'm not a $70k car kind of guy, but driving a Ferrari is sublime and owning one is awesome: there is nothing else like it and if I sell this one, I'll probably never be in a position to have one again.
Need more details, color, condition in and out, originality and options to start. Sounds like someone replaced the odometer or returned it to zero when they repaired it. Speedometer repairs are common in these cars. Zeroing the trip odometer while moving is a no-no, stripping gears and rendering the odometer nonoperational. Father time also has a way of reducing some gears to goo. YMMV
I'm on my 4th 944 and current one is also a turbo. As I see it a cheap or good deal on these cars is a rarity. Typically you'll spend another couple of grand in the early months just to ensure the car is not going to break (timing belts and water pump) and other miscellaneous things. As far as my '86 turbo is concerned, it was a barn find and I got a real education on turbo cars, as I do my own wrenching. This has been a 5 year restoration project and I intend to keep it as long as I'm still able to drive. I got it for $5,000 and I've spent more than twice that for the "bumper to bumper" restoration, not including repaint. It's quick, fun and eye catching and in my mind (not my wife's) well worth all the money, frustration and aggravation one experiences restoring old foreign cars. Have fun with yours, they're great cars.
Specifically to 944s (as in plural not the 944S), I'm a dilettante here, though I have some insight based on what I've learned on mine thus far and life experience with other cars.
First, odometers seem to be a chronic problem in these cars. If you aren't looking for a condition #1 investment grade car; mileage is, in the grand scheme of things, just a number.
If it is a car running and driving as it should, that is a good start.
Next, how much risk can you afford? If you want an extra car for some weekend fun: read on. If you're trying to convince your wife a bottom of the market 30+ year old turbo Porsche is the best way to get the kids to school and you to work every day, ummm...stop doing that: read on only if you can afford a divorce.
Timing belt, rollers and water pump: receipts or it didn't happen. When I did mine, Lindsey Racing had the best price on a belt and roller kit, ECS Tuning for a Geba waterpump. That is all about $500 just in parts. This will need to be done in five years or less.
The clutch kit is the most expensive I've ever seen for a car, upwards of $700 in parts. My Ferrari is cheaper.
A PPI is a good investment, but cost to purchase price can be a silly ratio. If you can test drive and it handles well, tracks straight, power comes on as it should and there are no funny noises, you may be OK. Budget for wear items in the first few years: ball joints, tie rods, brake pads, tires.
Now, it's story time, so strap in if you like: When I bought my 308 ten years ago I got all the "don't buy without a PPI" and "must have service records since new" input; meh. I didn't get a PPI and the only records I had were for a recent major service (belts, rollers, valve adjustment, fluids, general going over of major systems). To me, the price was right and it looked like I could get at least a year of driving out of it before it needed any significant investment. I took it for a test drive, it drove well and pulled hard to an RPM the owner showed a visual discomfort with (though not exceeding factory specifications). Ultimately, I was satisfied it didn't have any immediate needs, so I bought it. Here I am ten years later and my major expenses have been elective. I did a full belt job, refreshed the cooling system, and rebuilt the air conditioning. To date, I think I've spent more trying to get my 944S running than I have on my 308, and my 308 has been autocrossing since I bought it and has performed respectably at Watkins Glenn and Summit Point this past year. Since I bought it though, the 308 has made the transition from a bottom of depreciation used anecdote to a last of the analog classics collectible and tripled in price. So, in having from what I can tell is one of four '85 Euro GTBs in America, I've decided I'd rather not bin a $70k car at the track, so I bought a 944S for that job. To be fair, I'm not a $70k car kind of guy, but driving a Ferrari is sublime and owning one is awesome: there is nothing else like it and if I sell this one, I'll probably never be in a position to have one again.
Thanks for the passionate response! Investment is not an issue - I am looking to crack down on a good deal!
I appreciate the PPI anecdote, I think I will just have to plan a trip to see the car myself. Ultimately if it feels right to drive then I will learn enough and make some kind of judgement. The belt job seems to be a must do at some point..oh well.
Great timing with the 308, and it seems like driving it in spirit keeps it in shape. I will look to do the same and hope that exercise and routine maintenance will keep it going.
Inside looks surprisingly tight, no rips/tears/cracking and the plastic looks good. Shifter is starting to loosen at seams though.
Outside paint seems to have a few rough spots but overall 7/10 - no visible rust.
Need more details, color, condition in and out, originality and options to start. Sounds like someone replaced the odometer or returned it to zero when they repaired it. Speedometer repairs are common in these cars. Zeroing the trip odometer while moving is a no-no, stripping gears and rendering the odometer nonoperational. Father time also has a way of reducing some gears to goo. YMMV
I see. Maybe something innocuous like that happened (not intentional).
I attached some photos to give a sense of condition.
While most places exempt older cars from odometer reports & disclosures, any sort of discrepancy is a pretty big 'red flag' to normal buyers and sellers. It screams "Odo fraud", which is, or at least was a big problem. Even when folks are selling 'special' cars, the notation of "TMU" (true mileage unknown) often creates a big price drop.
In this case, it's reasonable to assume that the odo broke (common problem) and was not reset properly when it was fixed. It's also not that hard to guess at what the correct mileage is. For a properly cared for 944, 100k isn't a whole lot. Those pics don't suggest 27k miles. The steering wheel & shifter show too mych wearl There are a few other 'tell tales' that aren't in the pics. Brake & Clutch pedal pad wear is often a good one. Seat belts are another.
I would definitely put that car in the 'well worth a closer look' category.
If everything checks out, an offer appropriate to a 150k mile car would probably be fair. Likely a 100k mile car, minus the odo discrepancy.
While most places exempt older cars from odometer reports & disclosures, any sort of discrepancy is a pretty big 'red flag' to normal buyers and sellers. It screams "Odo fraud", which is, or at least was a big problem. Even when folks are selling 'special' cars, the notation of "TMU" (true mileage unknown) often creates a big price drop.
In this case, it's reasonable to assume that the odo broke (common problem) and was not reset properly when it was fixed. It's also not that hard to guess at what the correct mileage is. For a properly cared for 944, 100k isn't a whole lot. Those pics don't suggest 27k miles. The steering wheel & shifter show too mych wearl There are a few other 'tell tales' that aren't in the pics. Brake & Clutch pedal pad wear is often a good one. Seat belts are another.
I would definitely put that car in the 'well worth a closer look' category.
If everything checks out, an offer appropriate to a 150k mile car would probably be fair. Likely a 100k mile car, minus the odo discrepancy.
It's definitely worth checking out in person. Only problem is 500 miles between me and the car.. so trying to see if it is Really worth it. Going to talk with the dealer tomorrow and try to find out some more history.
I do not mind wear or even mileage issue - just that it is mechanically sound enough and drives well. I want to drive this car and don't really care about "investment." at this stage.
Watch out. Dealers NEVER price their cars at less than they're worth. Quite the opposite. If you think their asking price is less than this particular car is worth, then there is a good reason for it. Tread carefully.
Ten years ago, I bought my 951 sight unseen, in another country (I'm in Canada). I met a gentleman in a mall across the border and handed him a deposit--private sale--and he didn't even bring the car. A week later, I took a bus to pick it up and drive it home. It had 69k miles on the odometer and nice pictures. Today, it's past 160k miles and I've been driving it daily all year round. Here it is at work today:
In 1997, I began sending money orders to a guy in California to first buy then restore a '60 VW. We communicated over "electronic mail". A year later, I flew down to pick up the Bug and drive it home to Ontario. As soon as I got to Vegas--literally as I pulled into the hotel parking lot--the trans mount broke. I called the guy and he came next day to tow it back to LA, fix it, and bring it back the day after. No other issues and I kept that car for ten more years.
In both cases, buying costs were relatively great and worht a risk and adventure. Did I just get lucky? I believe most people are sincere; it's when you deal with people impersonally--like a salesman at a dealer--that problems happen. I bought a little used minivan from a dealer once and it turned out to have undisclosed issues. I showed up and there was a big dent in it.
Therefore, the only part I feel uneasy about with your story is that you are buying from a salesman. In this case, you might want to ask if they are willing, for a reasonable fee, to have a mechanic do a compression test on the motor and general look around, putting the results in writing.
I'm my experience, any below market value 951 is sold within 72 hours.
Now, I'm in Canada, so our supply up here is much smaller compared to the US. However, I've seen cars sell for much more than I thought they'd go for.
As an example, an '86 turbo popped up for sale locally for $6k, with huge clear coat issues and an interior that looked like squirrels had lived in it for the past 5 years, and it sold within 48 hours.
Maybe it's a good car and people are afraid to check it out, but with the recent market activity with these cars, I'm going back to the old saying; "if it's too good to be true, it probably is"
03-24-2019, 04:36 PM
First time 944
