Pass on a 944 S?
#16
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Having owned an 87 944S for 30 years I can say they are exceptional cars.
The engine is a different experience from the regular 944: It comes on nicely but at about 4k RPM the car just accelerates like a rocket. Turbos have lower end torque but the 944S will wind up to redline quite nicely and be pulling full power when you hit the rev limit. A stock 944 just kind of goes "meh" between 4k and 6k.
The knock sensors are nice, and it can run on 89 octane fuel without complaining. Put in 92-93 octane and yes you get more power.
I think they were expensive to make as they used a 928 head and camshaft system so they were limited in number. Maintenance is not a big deal (mine has well over 200k miles on it) but there are two issues:
1) Belts. The original -00 belt was bad design and broke a lot. I have not heard of an .02 belt breaking. Even when the head explodes
2) Timing chain tensioner pads. There is a tensioner hidden in the head. At 180k miles or so the pads will break and it will wrap the cams around the chain, breaking the head. Big pain. Fortunately you can take a 928S head, stick it on, and be back in business in about a year or so of work from 3am to 4am in the morning. :-)
The car is easier on the drivetrain than the turbos, and the transmission is geared to take advantage of the extra torque and RPMs.
Moral: If you drive one you will never be able to drive a stock 944 again. I've drive turbos and prefer the S. And they're cheap because everyone says they are a step child.....
The engine is a different experience from the regular 944: It comes on nicely but at about 4k RPM the car just accelerates like a rocket. Turbos have lower end torque but the 944S will wind up to redline quite nicely and be pulling full power when you hit the rev limit. A stock 944 just kind of goes "meh" between 4k and 6k.
The knock sensors are nice, and it can run on 89 octane fuel without complaining. Put in 92-93 octane and yes you get more power.
I think they were expensive to make as they used a 928 head and camshaft system so they were limited in number. Maintenance is not a big deal (mine has well over 200k miles on it) but there are two issues:
1) Belts. The original -00 belt was bad design and broke a lot. I have not heard of an .02 belt breaking. Even when the head explodes
2) Timing chain tensioner pads. There is a tensioner hidden in the head. At 180k miles or so the pads will break and it will wrap the cams around the chain, breaking the head. Big pain. Fortunately you can take a 928S head, stick it on, and be back in business in about a year or so of work from 3am to 4am in the morning. :-)
The car is easier on the drivetrain than the turbos, and the transmission is geared to take advantage of the extra torque and RPMs.
Moral: If you drive one you will never be able to drive a stock 944 again. I've drive turbos and prefer the S. And they're cheap because everyone says they are a step child.....
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makros (06-20-2021)
#17
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I'm exploring the possibility of buying a 944 and I've been reading a few buyer's guides on the net. A couple of them disparaged the 944 S with the following comments:
"The 190bhp, 16-valve 944 S didn't sell in any great numbers mainly because the performance was disappointing and it didn't sound much like a twin-cam should,"
"Because engine parts for the original 944 S are costly, and also because its engine doesn’t have the effortless muscle of the later models, these earlier cars are best avoided."
Is there any truth to these statements? Is the 944 S a red-headed stepchild?
"The 190bhp, 16-valve 944 S didn't sell in any great numbers mainly because the performance was disappointing and it didn't sound much like a twin-cam should,"
"Because engine parts for the original 944 S are costly, and also because its engine doesn’t have the effortless muscle of the later models, these earlier cars are best avoided."
Is there any truth to these statements? Is the 944 S a red-headed stepchild?
I liked the S2 best of all as a road and track car as compared to the 951 since for my style of driving it's better to be able to brake hard into a turn and accelerate equally hard out of it, which the S2 excels at compared with the 951. The 951 will easily beat me in the straits, but I don't enjoy driving highways or strait tracks. If that ever changes, I can put a 2.7L 8V head on the S2, mate it to bolt on 951 plumbing, and smoke just about anything on the road.
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#18
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I liked the S2 best of all as a road and track car as compared to the 951 since for my style of driving it's better to be able to brake hard into a turn and accelerate equally hard out of it, which the S2 excels at compared with the 951. The 951 will easily beat me in the straits, but I don't enjoy driving highways or strait tracks. If that ever changes, I can put a 2.7L 8V head on the S2, mate it to bolt on 951 plumbing, and smoke just about anything on the road. ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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Hm (wheels turning)
#19
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The engine is a different experience from the regular 944: It comes on nicely but at about 4k RPM the car just accelerates like a rocket. Turbos have lower end torque but the 944S will wind up to redline quite nicely and be pulling full power when you hit the rev limit.
Several times now people (including you and mrgreenjeans in an earlier post) have mentioned heads breaking, cracking, exploding or otherwise failing. Am I to understand that this is a common problem? Is it avoidable? Is it just the 16V engines that I need to worry about?
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Several times now people (including you and mrgreenjeans in an earlier post) have mentioned heads breaking, cracking, exploding or otherwise failing. Am I to understand that this is a common problem? Is it avoidable? Is it just the 16V engines that I need to worry about?
Last edited by Otto Mechanic; 03-01-2019 at 01:20 AM.
#21
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As discussed I think the timing belt thing has been fixed. Even the 928 guys can't point to a belt that failed by itself. Usually it's the water pump seizing and making a hell of a noise till you shut down.
The weakness is the cam chain tensioner pads. They eventually wear down and when they do the chain can catch on the tensioner. Which rips the tensioner from the head, and puts it into the cam gears. Which shear, making a mess.
928's don't seem to have this hit as much because at 60mph the 928S is loafing at 2k rpm while the 944S is at 3k rpm. Less stress.
I think the 968 engine has a dynamic tensioner, bit different.
The weakness is the cam chain tensioner pads. They eventually wear down and when they do the chain can catch on the tensioner. Which rips the tensioner from the head, and puts it into the cam gears. Which shear, making a mess.
928's don't seem to have this hit as much because at 60mph the 928S is loafing at 2k rpm while the 944S is at 3k rpm. Less stress.
I think the 968 engine has a dynamic tensioner, bit different.
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#23
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i threw up a post on working on my 944s if you want to see what i changed. Granted that was to get it to a daily driver, the primary things i noticed when i took everything apart is:
1) The 944s is a 944, with turbo parts.
2) The 944s2 is a 944 turbo with turbo parts.
Needless to say, bother are more robust than an 8v 944.
I know i'm over simplifying, but i was very surprised at how many parts it shares with the turbo. No the power isn't super fast, but it's noticeably faster than my old 944 (8v) and if you goal is to row gears near red line, it's great to drive. You won't be racing anybody, but i drive the car around New York City, and each and every time i get on the highway someone doesn't matter the car wants to race.
Partwise, take a look at everything i replaced in my thread. It was very very easy to find parts, and they were no more expensive than a regular 944. The only unique things from what i recall were the timing chain, pad tensioner, two knock sensors. If you use the right oil, and change the pad tensioner in a reasonable time, you'll be fine with the head. The other stuff referenced (belts etc.) you'll have to use on the other 944's also, just different lengths (number of teeth).
1) The 944s is a 944, with turbo parts.
2) The 944s2 is a 944 turbo with turbo parts.
Needless to say, bother are more robust than an 8v 944.
I know i'm over simplifying, but i was very surprised at how many parts it shares with the turbo. No the power isn't super fast, but it's noticeably faster than my old 944 (8v) and if you goal is to row gears near red line, it's great to drive. You won't be racing anybody, but i drive the car around New York City, and each and every time i get on the highway someone doesn't matter the car wants to race.
Partwise, take a look at everything i replaced in my thread. It was very very easy to find parts, and they were no more expensive than a regular 944. The only unique things from what i recall were the timing chain, pad tensioner, two knock sensors. If you use the right oil, and change the pad tensioner in a reasonable time, you'll be fine with the head. The other stuff referenced (belts etc.) you'll have to use on the other 944's also, just different lengths (number of teeth).
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i threw up a post on working on my 944s if you want to see what i changed. Granted that was to get it to a daily driver, the primary things i noticed when i took everything apart is:
1) The 944s is a 944, with turbo parts.
2) The 944s2 is a 944 turbo with turbo parts.
Needless to say, bother are more robust than an 8v 944.
I know i'm over simplifying, but i was very surprised at how many parts it shares with the turbo. No the power isn't super fast, but it's noticeably faster than my old 944 (8v) and if you goal is to row gears near red line, it's great to drive. You won't be racing anybody, but i drive the car around New York City, and each and every time i get on the highway someone doesn't matter the car wants to race.
Partwise, take a look at everything i replaced in my thread. It was very very easy to find parts, and they were no more expensive than a regular 944. The only unique things from what i recall were the timing chain, pad tensioner, two knock sensors. If you use the right oil, and change the pad tensioner in a reasonable time, you'll be fine with the head. The other stuff referenced (belts etc.) you'll have to use on the other 944's also, just different lengths (number of teeth).
1) The 944s is a 944, with turbo parts.
2) The 944s2 is a 944 turbo with turbo parts.
Needless to say, bother are more robust than an 8v 944.
I know i'm over simplifying, but i was very surprised at how many parts it shares with the turbo. No the power isn't super fast, but it's noticeably faster than my old 944 (8v) and if you goal is to row gears near red line, it's great to drive. You won't be racing anybody, but i drive the car around New York City, and each and every time i get on the highway someone doesn't matter the car wants to race.
Partwise, take a look at everything i replaced in my thread. It was very very easy to find parts, and they were no more expensive than a regular 944. The only unique things from what i recall were the timing chain, pad tensioner, two knock sensors. If you use the right oil, and change the pad tensioner in a reasonable time, you'll be fine with the head. The other stuff referenced (belts etc.) you'll have to use on the other 944's also, just different lengths (number of teeth).
What standard turbo parts are on the S2? 1988 sway bars, brakes, bumper, header, steering wheel, rear diffuser. Don't forget the spare tire. What standard S2 part is not on the turbo (at least not on the 88 turbo unless added as an option)? ABS
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In terms of performance fun my progression from least to best would be
-Early 944 8v
-944s 16v
-944S2 16v
-968 16v
-944 Turbo 8v
-968 Turbo
I’ve owned some and read everything I could about all of these cars and none of them have a reputation of fragile engines, either top or bottom end.
-Early 944 8v
-944s 16v
-944S2 16v
-968 16v
-944 Turbo 8v
-968 Turbo
I’ve owned some and read everything I could about all of these cars and none of them have a reputation of fragile engines, either top or bottom end.
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makros (06-20-2021)
#26
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my understanding with the 928 vs 944 chain tensioner is the following:
1) 928s mostly came with automatics and don't get RPM'd like a manual 944S/S2 would as often.
2) the manual 928 DOHC cars are rare and tend to be well taken care of and maintenance not deferred.
3) 928 DOHC i believe has a different oil restrictor system to the heads - prolonged high-RPM driving literally fills the heads and cam covers with engine oil that can't drain to the sump fast enough.
.....so the tensioners and chains are likely bathed in a greater qty of oil than 944, which lubes and cools better.
4) specific output on the 944S is a lot higher than the 928S4, GT, or even GTS - more stress, more heat, more revs, more of the time.
1) 928s mostly came with automatics and don't get RPM'd like a manual 944S/S2 would as often.
2) the manual 928 DOHC cars are rare and tend to be well taken care of and maintenance not deferred.
3) 928 DOHC i believe has a different oil restrictor system to the heads - prolonged high-RPM driving literally fills the heads and cam covers with engine oil that can't drain to the sump fast enough.
.....so the tensioners and chains are likely bathed in a greater qty of oil than 944, which lubes and cools better.
4) specific output on the 944S is a lot higher than the 928S4, GT, or even GTS - more stress, more heat, more revs, more of the time.
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I still have (and track) an early production MY87 944S. It's a 944, so it handles really well and is a lot of fun. It does have more power than the eight-valve, aspiros, which is noticeable and adds to the enjoyment. Also shares the brakes with them, and they are marginal on some high-speed tracks no matter how carefully you cool and maintain them.
The British magazine "911 and Porsche World" once put the 944S on its list of the "Ten Worst Porsches of All Time," crediting its torque curve with "a flat spot the width of Albania." Oh well, you can't please 'em all. When introduced, the 944S was priced only a little more than the base 944, and quite a bit less than the 951.
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Basically correct: the five-spoke classic Fuchs were available only for the early-offset 944 series, and did not fit the 87-forward cars with the longer offset. However, I believe the "sewer lid" forged wheels that were available for the later 944 series cars were in fact made by Fuchs. The phone dials were standard equipment. There was a platinum tint wheel that could be ordered before production began, but Porsche dropped the option as production began and it was never made available. (I think I ordered them. My car was a tourist delivery, in theory. Story there.)
I still have (and track) an early production MY87 944S. It's a 944, so it handles really well and is a lot of fun. It does have more power than the eight-valve, aspiros, which is noticeable and adds to the enjoyment. Also shares the brakes with them, and they are marginal on some high-speed tracks no matter how carefully you cool and maintain them.
The British magazine "911 and Porsche World" once put the 944S on its list of the "Ten Worst Porsches of All Time," crediting its torque curve with "a flat spot the width of Albania." Oh well, you can't please 'em all. When introduced, the 944S was priced only a little more than the base 944, and quite a bit less than the 951.
I still have (and track) an early production MY87 944S. It's a 944, so it handles really well and is a lot of fun. It does have more power than the eight-valve, aspiros, which is noticeable and adds to the enjoyment. Also shares the brakes with them, and they are marginal on some high-speed tracks no matter how carefully you cool and maintain them.
The British magazine "911 and Porsche World" once put the 944S on its list of the "Ten Worst Porsches of All Time," crediting its torque curve with "a flat spot the width of Albania." Oh well, you can't please 'em all. When introduced, the 944S was priced only a little more than the base 944, and quite a bit less than the 951.
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Sewer lids being the forged wheels on the 88 951S and 89 951, not the D90s that looked similar. We had a set of D90s on the 944S with stock brakes. They didn't get cooling on the track (the wheels got way too hot) so we put the stickies on the phone dials and the street tires on the D90s.
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I've always called them manhole covers rather than sewer lids but I supposed it's the same idea. What I don't much like about them is they don't seem to cool the brakes well. I have them on my '85 928 and they're fine on the street but not so much on the track.