mpw

I'm currently driving a 2002 Audi S4 that I'm looking to sell. I'm still making payments on the Audi and heading to graduate school in the fall; I'd really like to eliminate that payment.

I was initially looking at '95 E36 M3s, but a P-car buddy of mine turned me on to the 944. Here's the thing, I'm going to school in New Hampshire, so it's going to be cold and snowy (I too am questioning my decision to sell my AWD car with heated seats). The 944 would be my only car, but it would not be a daily driver; I'll live close enough to campus that I won't need to drive.

The sale of my S4 should net me well over $20,000 but I don't want to put all of that money towards a car. I'd like to have some cash to do as many track events this summer as I can; here's where the 944 makes sense. I've found a really nice '91 944 S2 with about 100k miles on it. It seems well maintained and I'm going to take a look at it this weekend. I've read all the FAQ and buying guides, so I'm prepared to put a few thousand dollars (read: $2,000 - $3,000, not $8,000) into the car if need be, pending a positive PPI. I do need a reasonably reliable car however.

If properly maintained, is the 944 reasonably reliable? I know I'm not buying a Honda, but there seems to be a lot of trouble spots on the 944 (timing belt, chain tensioners, clutch, etc...). How prevalent are these issues on well maintained 944s? I don't want to spend $10,000 on a 944 and then spend $10,000 more keeping it running.

Also, assuming I put a set of quality snow tires on it (probably Nokian Studded Hakkapellita 2s), will it be managable in the snow? I'm not expecting H2 performance, but I drove a Nissan 240SX for a few years in Rochester, NY during college and never had a problem with good snow tires. I'm assuming that the 944 is pretty similar as far as the snow is concerned (about the same weight, weight distribution, drivetrain layout, etc.).

So, given the above, am I nuts for looking for a 944 at this point in my life?

sweanders

If you keep up with maintenance and find a well kept example you will not have any trouble with reliability. Things can always go wrong with any car but Porsche has very high quality components and if you buy a late car it's a car that was in production for many years of eliminating potential problems.

These cars handle great with winter tires but since they are very neutral in the handling they might not seem as safe to drive as a car with understeer if you are not a confident driver.

Conor

Now I love 944's, but, keep the Audi if at all possible. 02 is still the 2.7, right?

Friendan

First off, I'd like to commend you for looking into the 944 here on at rennlist.
The Audi S4 is a top quality pick, I'm sure many would vouch that car as their second car to have in their driveway, so getting rid of a great 2 year old car for one that is at least 13 years older (considering a '91 S2), you will run into more problems with the 944, no matter how good a specimen you find.
Mind you, I assume your monthly payments are high therefore you would definitely save money on the switch.
I personally would still prefer an S2 over an Audi, but that's just my preference. I only have an older NA, and I still love the thing. I will eventually move up to a 951. But just know that if you take care of the car it will reward you tenfold.
If you take care of the major jobs, notably the timing belt, and have it adjusted at the required intervals, you will never have a problem.
I keep my car out of the snow entirely, partly because I have summer tires, and partly because of the salt. If you have winter tires and you don't care about what the salt will inevitably do to your car, then get the S2. But the S4 will always handle better in the snow.
I say go for it!

billybones

100,000 miles. at this point anything can break. there is something about changing drivers also. If you wish to race it, then get one that is already being raced. Those are the most reliable. best up keep. If you take a garage queen and start beating on it.. it really goes beyond upkeep then..Your situation would dictate a lot of thought into this. These cars are extremely reliable if kept up and driven every day.. But school is first. IMHO.. why would you want to add to your worries of tracking down parts and then putting them in yourself.. I have come to the conclusion that even a good ppi is a gamble... to many years of reading... and it is not something you really need at this point.. Get a good grocery getter.

Luke

have you considered a 968?

Tom R.

In sept 2000 I started with an excellent 89S2 with 56k that cost 11,500. three years later at 74k the total was close to 27000 and everything was sorted out, including the work you would be doing at about 125k.

There is a letter to the editor in this month's sports car market magazine written by the owner of a posche repair shop outlining how much more expensive it is to own a 944 than a 911.

"simply put the 944 cannot be maintianed in your back yard....In addition to the timing belt nonsendw, add the dost of oil leak repairs at the front of the engine...and O-rings, and a 944 can surge very close to $2,000 in maintenance every 30k miles...Oil cooler housing..It can leak internally, allowing coolant and oil to mix, damaginf the connecting rod bearings before you see talltale traces of oil in the car's coolant reservoir....clutch...eight hours labor plus parts, motor mounts ($600 for the pair includng labor), are in at least the fourth design, and the oil leaks we've discussed rot out rubber sway bar bushings, steering rack boots and other stuff...... "

No, the S2 would not be my choice as an only car with much more important thins to focus on like GPA. An 8 valve NA is less intimidating to most mechanics.

mpw

Thanks for the candid responses guys, I'm a little surprised, but I appreciate the honesty. To answer your questions, and respond to some of the comments, I'm a pretty confident driver in the winter, having grown up in upstate NY and spending college in Rochester. Driving in the snow doesn't really bother me, and I actually quite enjoy it. I don't anticipate any problems with the neutral handling of the 944 when the weather gets crappy.

Yes, my S4 does have the 2.7L TT motor, and about 22k miles. I love it, and my payments are only $400/mo., but it would be nice to have that as pocket money while in school. I guess it's concevable that I could end up spending and average of $400/mo. keeping the 944 running.

I'm aware of the maintenance requirements of the 944 and will make sure the timing belt has been changed at regular intervals, and will keep this up. The car I'm looking at is a one owner car and he says he has all the service records since day one. I'll look through these to make sure everything is there.

Yes, I know that I'm risking salt damage by driving it in the winter, but I figure that I'll spray the car off at the DIY car wash at least once a week in the winter, so I can hopefully hold off any ill effects. I don't think the car has seen any snow yet, and was a weekend driver, so it should be in excellent condition now.

I'm not too daunted by the idea of having to wrench on the thing to keep her up. I'm going to verify that there is a good Porsche mechanic where I'll be (Hanover, NH, if anyone knows of one).

I'm not planning on racing it, just some track days/driver's schools over the summer. If I'm forced to drive a grocery getter, I'll go crazy; I need something that I can have fun with. While perhaps not the most rational decision, that's me and I know I'll regret spending $5,000 on a beater Civic or some other Point A-to-Point B transportation.

I've thought about the 968, but most of the ones I've seen are around $13k-$15k, that's a little pricey, considering I'm assuming I'll have to put a few thousand dollars into it. I'd like to have some cash to play with.

Tom, if you could elaborate on your experience, what repairs are in that $15,500? I'm guessing that at that level it included an engine or transmission rebuild, or both. Thanks though, these are the sort of things I need to hear. Luckily business school doesn't have a typical grading system, so I won't need to really worry about my GPA, so to speak.

tifosiman

MPW,

That article that Tom quoted was written by a crotchety 911 owner in order to further the superiority complex that he has over the 944. Most 911 owners are not this way, but there are some.

With that being said, if you find a good example, and can do your own work, there is no reason that a 944 of any itteration should not be any worse of a daily driver than any other car of the same vintage.

Take the comments made by those who bought a bad example and spent way too much on repairs because they can't do their own work, as the exception instead of the norm.

I personally have had very few problems in 3 years of ownership and driving the car hard at various events. Most of my money has been dumped into upgrading the car, which is my own choice.

Best of luck!

pete944

Wow, that's a little out of whack IMO.

There's no reason at all that a 944 (S2,S, 951, or NA) cannot be maintained in your backyard. That is a ludicrous statement. I'm an average mechanic and I've yet to have any problem that I can't fix myself in 6 years of 944 ownership. In those 6 years neither of my cars spent a second at a mechanic.
The issues in that quote one at a time.

Timing belt/waterpump job- Not hard to do. Cost of $450 in parts and $10 for a Kricket KR-1 tensioning gauge. 1 day of work.

Oil cooler seals- $25 for the seals, $25 for the alignment gauge, $20 to change the oil & coolant. Again, about a days work. The seals should last 75-100K miles easy.

Clutch-$500 in parts, and a weekends work. There a plenty of Rennlisters all over the country with experience that would help if needed.

Motor mounts- $200 for the newest factory mounts. I replaced mine in about 4 hours.

Sway bar bushings- Big deal. $50 in parts and a few hours work. Who ever said that sway bar bushings were a problem anyway?

Steering rack boots- Those aren't a big ticket item either.

These cars are just cars. They're not any harder to work on than any other car. If you can do any of your own work they are not that expensive to maintain. If you don't do your own work, it's a good time to learn. You'll take more pride in your car and yourself.

Brian McCoy

While I had an 86 Turbo and not a 91 S2, I spent less than the 'average' (according to prices I've seen posted here in the following 17 months) to buy the car. It had 106k when I bought it and 118kwhen I sold it. The PPI told me some good and some bad - I fixed the bad at home, in my driveway for less than $500 (I was quoted $2k by the shop). The car turned out to be Dead reliable, needing only wheel bearings in the time I owned it. Granted I didn't track the car, but I put it through the paced up in the N. GA mountains (not quite to the pace I'd have on the track, but close).

If you find a good car, it'll be good for the life of the car (pending maintenance ~ but that doesn't sound like an issue). I'd say go for it... BUT, don't just buy the car you're looking at now based on how you feel because it can be covering some major issues (90~100k is right where things start getting ignord AFAIK).

A well informed purchase CAN yield you a car that's dead reliable, low maintenance and capable of being a daily driver. Just make yourself well informed.

AndyK

Just know that going from a brand new 2-year old car, to a 13-year old 100k miler will be a bit of a shock! The 944 is noisier (mostly in a good way), stiffer, rougher, and probably much slower (0-60)!

That said, I've never owned a sub-$10k car that got so much attention, handled so well, and caused so much obsessive behavior as the 944! Once you replace the wear-items and do the maintainance, you should have a reliable sports machine.

I would plan on walking to school WAY more in the winter though! What color is that 1-owner '91?? Sounds good to me. Good luck!

josephsc

MPW,

As an aside, a 2002 Audi S4 with 27K miles is going to net you well over $20K -- easily $25K and possibly closer to $30K (depending on the condition). I'd think that the value will take a hit when your warranty runs out (still have couple of years and 23K miles). If you're not going to be using a car everyday and you're worried about payments, I'd still sell the car rather than let the value depreciate on your driveway. What vehicle you get as a replacement is still an open question.

What kind of grad school are you going to? In most cases, you'll have plenty of time to pursue hobbies outside of classes -- personally, I had more spare time in grad school than I did when I had a job.

Tom R.

MPW, I chose not to do my own work I learned enough when I restored my 68 Firebird Convertible twenty years ago. I have a friend that is a very competent mechanic. Being an attorney it is cheaper and easier for me to put in a few extra hours at something i am certified an expert in, and give that extra money to my friend that is certified an expert mechanic. I enjoy having the resources to buy piece of mind knowing the job was done right the first time (most of the time).

If you want more details from me about my car please send me a PM and i will be happy to tell you the details. Im not going to get into a pissing contest. The "crotchety 911 owner" that wrote the letter i took parts from is "Peter M. Zimmerman the founder of Red Line Service and hands-on owner of that Porsche-only Santa Monica, CA repair shop for 25 years and the author of The Used 911 Story." Don't listen to him, listen to a college student!

Click on the link below for some pictures of my "bad example". The car had 56k miles and no paintwork ever when I bought it (the stencil from the factory was still on the halfshafts, so no salt ever). I upgraded my seats, and sold my old seats to another board member. He sent me a thank you for selling him such pristine seats. The car was a solid 9 inside and out. I think Tifo is jealous that my "bad example" was in better shape than his!

BTW, I'm looking into buying a clean 911 as another toy.

Red 944

Guess I'll add my two cents
I think 944's are an absolute blast to drive. For the price, you really cannot beat it - you just can't. I'm sure there are cars out there for the same price that can pull more g's, slalom quicker, or hit 60 faster .. but the 944s are one hell of a package.
They're a real pain in the *** to work on though - and parts and labor are not cheap, which I feel is the reason for the low price you can buy one for. The only reason people work on their own cars here is because if one was to pay, it would be outrageous. Compared to the 911, it's a lot harder to work on. I think everyone will agree on the fact many things were over-engineered in the making of the 944, and a lot of things take twice as long as a 'normal' car.
The car I feel is over, but near 944[turbo] performance is the Lotus Turbo SEs. If you drove one, back to back with a [turbo], the prices of both would very much be justified. The SE has more go, stop, show, and steer .. but the 944 comes very close in every aspect, and really kicks its *** in the practicality department.
I could go on for a couple more pages, but you know what I'm getting to.
944's a great bang for the buck, and suits peoples' needs.
Gotta see where the 911 people are coming from though