Mike C.

My 85 944 has just over 200K on the clock and has been a very reliable car over the past 13 years. I've never been stranded. However, I would suggest you do as much preventative maintenence (in the summer) as possible so you don't have to do any wrenching in the winter. Think water pump, oil seals, belts... As to the notion that a 944 is more costly to maintain than an equivalent age 911, I have a very hard time believing that. I'm sure 911's have thier own specific problems and the parts ain't any cheaper folks....

epbrown01

Well, depending on the 911, it's true. As Zimmerman's full letter makes the point, a 911 with it's issues sorted will be fixed for good, and maintaining it will be cheaper after that. Sure, my SC needed Carrera tensioners, a pop-off valve, and new stainless steel heat exchangers, but after that it's pretty much valve adjustments and oil changes until I need an engine rebuild (in around 200,000 miles). Compared to the timing belt issue, that's cake.

But he overstates that issue, and the other issues mentioned are, like the sixer issues, non-recurring. A new timing belt every 3 years at $800 or so doesn't strike me as outrageously expensive to be driving a Porsche. Ask any Ferrari 308 owner :-)

Emanuel

Colin Laney

Well, I'm new to rennlist, but I'm certainly not new to this debate, and I've got some firsthand experience with both 911's and 944's. In my family, we've owned two 911's (still have one), a 924S, a 944 NA (my current daily ride), and a 928 GT (still have that too).

The cost of maintenance on the 944 and 924S is definitely higher than with the 911. I'd say an average of between $800-$1200 was spent on the cars yearly in terms of maintenance to keep them in good shape, and that's at an independent specialist who works on the cars. I'd avoid dealerships for 944's unless you find a particularly good one, because they tend to overcharge for labor and have a bias against the "poor man's porsche".

Having said that, the cost of ownership (very different than cost of maintenance) is dramatically lower on the 944's. The initial entry price of a 944 is very low compared to most other Porsches, and then the over-time maintenance is still not going to bring you up towards the purchase price of a 911. I could, at $1500 in maintenance yearly, own my 944 for 12 years before the combined maintenance costs and purchase price would equal what was paid for the 928 GT. And that's not considering any maintenance costs for the 928.

Plus, the 944 series of cars isn't going to experience significant depreciation (how much lower can they go, really?) and if maintained properly with timing belt, oil leak, and water pump issues, they are incredibly reliable. Between the 924S and the 944 I've used as daily drivers, I've had five years of Porsche ownership and zero combined breakdowns. Usually the cars will start giving you warning signals long before they kick out, though the timing belt is an exception to this rule. Don't skimp on that one, though, and you are fine.

So you are hardly nuts for chasing after one, and if you buy a reasonable example and are responsible with maintenance, you've got a car that's great fun to drive, more practical than most Porsches, and will be quite reliable. So good luck with it.

ERAU-944

i was told when we got our first 944 (an 83 in '98) "sure the 944 is cheaper to buy, but you'll spend more in maintenance. the 911 is more expensive up front, and hold their value better, but everyone and their brother knows how to work on them, as they are VW derived."

all in all, it wasn't a mistake to buy the 944, (the second one might have been, but it's serving well), and definitely not a mistake to buy the third (she's my daily). dad's now looking at a fourth.

anyone want an 85.5 guards/black in need of paint for $2,500 in excellent mechanical shape?

-Michael-

epbrown01

I find the idea that "everyone and their brother knows how to work on" 911s because "they're VW derived" to be one of the scarier comments I've ever heard.

Emanuel (and that includes the time i was invited to Michael Jackson's for a "play date")

Mike the Rookie

Why not consider a used Mustang GT. I have both a 99 Mustang GT and an 87 944NA. If I could only have one of these cars and I needed it to be reliable I would definately take the GT. I know, I know, its a crude domestic car, it doesn't drive like a European car, it has a truck axle, etc. etc., but it offers tremendous bang for the buck and is basically bullitproof. I cross my fingers every time I get in the 944. With the Mustang I fire it up, light the tires all the way down the street and don't worry at all about it. A nice used 99 or 2000 GT would set you back about $11-13K. And it won't need $2-3K to sort out.

ERAU-944

if you cross your fingers when you drive your 944 you worry too much. do all the regular maintenance, and drive it. if something happens big deal, get it fixed. my car has been reliable. just drive it how its meant to be driven, and enjoy the grin!

people talk about the cheese eating grin they get after they drive. my cheese eating grin starts as i'm walking out in the parking lot towards my car... and doesnt end till long after the drive is over. of course since i do my own wrenching that gives me a bit more confidence in the car, but still, i find a lot of peoples worries on here are unfounded, as are most worries in general.

-Michael-

mpw

It's not the going, so much as the stopping and turning that turns me off of the Mustang. I actually do like the Cobra R (had a blast in one at VIR) and the new SVT Cobra is pretty sweet too. The issue with the Mustang is that, while I may not need to put $2-$3k into it to make it reliable, I'll put at least that much into it through brake and suspension upgrades. I'm hoping to keep the 944 stock and still be able to take her out on the track.

jonnybgood

Welcome mpw.

As the poster child for poor purchases and T belt disasters I think I should chime in here. The sale of my truck gave me a 10k budget and I thought I could start with a $3,500 944S and use the balance to get it to the car I wanted. Do a search on my posts to get the details if you care to because I don't want to whine anymore.

The silver S2 looks like a winner and with your budget you can likely get the car you want with that purchase. Something nobody has mentioned yet is the CAM CHAIN TENSIONER UPPER PAD. If you have a service invoice that says this was replaced recently then you are ok. The debate continues if you only need to replace the top pad, both pads, or both pads and the tensioner. Make sure at a minimum that the top pad has been replaced. Both pads with the tensioner cost about $300 but it will save you $,$$$.$$ repair. If it has not been done then pull the valve cover and replace it the day you get the car.Chain Failure Click Here This is where an 8V wins over a 16V.

In spite of my bad luck there is has not been one time that I have walked towards my car and not felt excited about driving. It is a great car for me.

Luis de Prat

Yeah, I've got a 1983 944 with 206K miles on the original engine, still runs strong. I've got an S2 with 140K miles, no engine issues either. The highest I've heard on an original 944 engine is Josh B's S2 with over 300K miles. What is the mileage on your 911SC?

I seldom hear of air cooled 911s going 200K miles without an engine rebuild. From years of reading the ads in Pano, I've noticed that lots of 911s have the engine rebuilt at around 80K miles. Last time I checked, doing pistons and cylinders on a 911 wasn't exactly economical.

IMHO you pay as you go along with the 944, and as was noted, even then it's not much unless we're talking about a heavily modified 951. OTOH, you pay a hefty purchase premium for the 911 over the 944, as was also noted, but then the issue of a potential engine rebuild puts owning the 911 long-term in a completely different financial ballpark than the 944.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the 911, but there's something to be said for 944 engine longevity.

Boobers

If I was in your situation I would be looking at a used WRX. Having said that, My experiences with the 944 so far have been about what i expected. I'm also from upstate NY and would never consider driving itin the snow. The salt would really kill the body/finish in short order regardless of car washing.

My 85.5 NA is indeed a great car, but finding mechanics around here almost necessitates the need to work on it yourself. The local porsche dealer is NOT interested in helping you unless there is a huge financial gain to be had.

On a technical level, the 944 is beautifully engineered and a pleasure to work on than any other car I've had.

If your looking for an eye turner, the 944 is it. People do get taken aback by it and most feel that it is worth far more money than what it actually cost.

Reading through the posts on this board (remember, search is your friend) you will quickly find that owning a 944 is not always about resources of money, but the virtue of hard work, thoughful insight and careful planning. In other words, many will buy these cars and run them until they have put off the expensive maintenance until they can pass off these problems on a subsequent owner. That's why there are so many parts cars out there.

I paid $3800 and have so far put about $200 into it. My Tbelt has about 3000 miles but is almost 4 years old. Time to change it.

Good luck. BTW-undergrad at UR? I'm from Buffalo.

Scootin159

Seems you're getting a ton of great advice here, but I figure what will one more hurt.

First of all it seems you're going into this with your eyes open, and you seem to really understand all the major issues at play here.

Second.....Driving it in the snow. I drove mine last winter in Rochester NY on a set of 6 year old, dry-rotted, bald, summer-only tires. Why? Guess I was stupid is all I can figure. Anyways, I'm happy to report that the car handled as good as any other car I've personally driven, and better than most. With a set of good snows I wouldn't worry about traction personally, maybe not as good as a AWD S4, but better than any civic out there.

So the question is, why am I not driving mine this year? Well I got it painted last spring, and I'm just afraid of salt. Probably a unfounded fear however as the entire body of these cars is galvanized at the factory. Hard to argue though when I had access to a $50 winter beater, and am saving a ton on insurance.

Next, maintenance. These aren't as reliable as a 2 year old Audi, but that being said in the last 2 years (of moderate maintenance) I haven't had my car leave me stranded or fail to start once. The car communicates with you good enough that chances are you can see things coming pretty good. On a well maintained car I wouldn't fear any of those achillies heals. A properly maintained timing belt probably won't break. Not saying you're garunteed a perfectly running car, but your chances are as good with any other car.

Just for reference, I spend about $1000/year on my car, including upgrades (probably about 1/2 of that), to drive about 10-15k miles/year.

josephsc

Darn it -- stop mentioning things like this! Now I'm going to have even more sleepless night....

Colin Laney

My old 924S (same engine, the 2.5L in the 944) had over 320k on it and was running fine before I finally sold the car.

pete944

You can get the upper pad from Zims for $25.00. They are said to be good for 100,000 miles. Even if you change it every 50,000 miles it only works out to .00005 cents per mile.
Even the entire tensioner assemby at $300 works out to .006 cents per mile if you change it every 50K!

I'd suggest that if you buy the S2 and there is no record of the cam chain tensioner being changed then do it right away, buy an extra pad and change pads in 50,000 miles. Replace the tensioner assembly after the next 50K, and so on.