tc944

mikehayes

Tires will be the single most significant change you can make the the performance of your car on track, by a good margin. I don't know how aggressive your 300 tread wear tires are, but I can tell you I have driven on track with all seasons and direzza star specs, and the difference blew my mind. Sway bars should help the body roll, however I upgraded my sways and springs simultaneously so I can't be sure which influences the body roll more. I have turbo sways (a few mm's smaller than M030's) and they keep my car significantly flatter than the stock '84 bars. The rear M030 bar should also be adjustable so you can dial in the handling characteristics to your liking.

87944turbo

Generally speaking, springs and sway bars (as well as torsion bars and sway bars) should be paired to complement one another. In effect, the springs and bars should work together at complimentary rates to resist roll.

In an extreme example, if you had an VERY stiff sway bar, and a VERY weak spring combination, the sway bar would be working almost completely on it’s own to resist roll. So if you can imagine in your mind, all of the roll force in the control arm being resisted at a single point, where the sway bar mounts to the arm. In that scenario you could bend or break a control arm.

So if you were go step up to a bigger bar, like the M030, upgraded springs should be part of your plan. Would you realize the benefits from a bigger arm w/o upgrading the springs? Absolutely, but the bars will be doing most if not all of the work. Is it the best way to go about it? No. Would it be safe? On a street car, probably, on a track car, probably not worth the risk.

MAGK944

T&T Racing

I have for sale used in excellent condition Tarett front and rear sway bars, perfect for a daily driver and track car combo. I am in Indianapolis for a few days and then returning home. The price is $600 plus shipping, 50% of new. PM me if interested and can provide photos later in the week of July 16th They were on a previous licensed and race car.

SamGrant951

^ thats a good deal, I paid >800 for a set of tarrets for my spec 944. Are they here in Indiana? Kind of tempted to drop the 968 m030 setup on my 951 at that price.

T&T Racing

They are in Albany, NY,

V2Rocket

for the turbo S big bars (27 or 30mm?) Porsche found it necessary to add a bit of bracing to the chassis between the frame rail and the fender liner...something to consider.

951and944S

What wheels...?
15" stock wheels..?

I would find some late 16" phone dials, 8" front and rear,
1) allows you to rotate tires and get way more life out of them (even if you just continue to DE and never race, tires will be your most costly perishable)
2) gives you a perfect base to balance the car
3) you don't have an amount of power on the drive wheels to justify a wider rear

Tires will no doubt give you the best lap time benefit but at $1000-$1200 a set, you could just about install mo30 bars, 30mm rear torsion and get the coilover kit for your Konis + springs.
If you are going no further than fast lapping/DE, this setup will do you fine, coupled with good tires later after you settle on pads that suit your style.

If you plan on building now the base for eventually racing, then you already have spent good money for SP1 (Konis) but up from there, SP2, Koni Sports aint gonna cut it.
Once you balance the car with springs, mo30 bars are fine (we race these at the top level of SP2) and IMO the higher $$, more complicated bars are unnecessary gimmickry.

So, for improved car that will be a great handling package on the cheap for fast DE days,

4 x 8" phone dials
30mm rear torsion bars
Coilover kit for your Konis + 400 lb springs
mo30 sway bars
track pads (stock NA callipers)

T

T&T Racing

I will have available used, Koni double adjustable front shocks inserted into 951 modified struts for early steering knuckles , easy to modify if you have late spindles, instaing a 1 mm shim on each side of the flange and modifying the center to center bolt distance. The units are thread for full coilover height adjustment.
Also used Koni 3012 double adjustable rear shocks that have the parts to be coiliver.
Also have 2-8 lnch length 400 lb/in front coilover springs.
The parts are 3 years old in good condition and seen 15 track days.
Package cost is $1800. Paragon price for the package is about $3500. Shipping is extra.

tc944

I am running 16" phone dials, 7" front, 8" in the rear with EBC yellow stuff pads. The car is very well balanced and responds well to trail breaking and rotates well in the corners with the throttle.

I just assumed heavier sways with stock springs would keep the car a little more level and that would help my grip level a little. I feel like I should stay with these tires a while longer. I am still learning how to keep the car at the limit and they give me quite a bit of warning when I am going too far.

Do most track day guys go with lowereing springs when they upgrade to stiffer ones?


Thanks for all the comments. I learn something new every time I come to the forum.

951and944S

Well then, all you need are two more 8" phone dials....

Think about it..., a properly set up car's target is 50/50, and unless you have power to exceed the grip of the rear tires (you don't), the front tires are being worked as hard or harder than the rears. Now you want to take 1" of cross section away from the fronts (maybe more 225 vs 245).

Go for the square 8" setup, 245s all around. Even if for nothing else, the ability to shuffle the wearing shoulder fronts to the rear for fresher, less abused tires is worth the change, but EVERY track has that 1-2 right or left handers that's just harder on either of the two fronts, you move that tire away from 100+% duty to another position on the car, both extends the life of all the tires and also keeps grip performance more consistent as you manage the outer shoulder wear .

You tend to know what to expect and the car is just way more predictable.

Instead of half way through a day...., you are tinkering with a sway bar because "oh man, all of a sudden I have understeer and it gets worse each session" because by now the car has to lean over further to find front grip because the shoulder is worn down or the sidewall rolls more on the wheel and creates a domino effect of overheating the tire.

Get a paint marking pen and mark heat cycles and position on the car where that heat cycle was run, Ex- LF III Rr II, this way you can manage the tires through their whole life.

The move to coilovers, will allow you to corner balance the car while having the ability set/adjust ride height, rake, etc.

A car that is properly balanced is night and day from what you are experiencing now, even as good as that is on stock suspension.

Each wheel's load carrying duty is as equal as possible, so when you make your turn in, as in an example of doing 100mph at a point on track when you know you can corner this turn at 100mph, the car reacts instantaneously to your input...., it just goes there, no sway, no delay.

Let's say in the event you have 3 corners of the car carrying 750lb of the total car weight each, and one corner, the LF carrying 680lbs, that soft LF has to load more before the car can react as precise as if you made a left hand corner as opposed to a right hander. In a right hand turn, same scenario, the car will roll more onto the softer corner which causes the roll bar to attempt to raise the right side wheel which has a stiffer spring, noted by the 70 more lbs it's carrying. What you have is a car that handles better/flatter in one direction than the other.

It's complicated and can be confusing...., but for now...., trust me on this..., find two late offset 8" phone dials....

T

Otto Mechanic

T, maybe a little off topic, but I wonder if you happen to know the size of the torsion bars that Porsche Motorsports used on the "Super 7"? I've been looking around a while and can't seem to find much on the suspension set up they used on those cars, in fact I'm still not clear on whether the original cars used rear coilovers or what the spring rates were in case you know the answer to that also?

mel_t_vin

Scott, pretty sure that Porsche fitted the S2 Club Sports with the same M637 25.5 mm torsions from the '87+ Turbo Cups. If Jim sees this, hopefully he chimes in.

T&T Racing

I have for sale Koni double adjustable shock struts for sale at $850 plus shipping. These Koni struts have lower spring perch adjustable to change coil over spring ride height. Also have 400 lb/in spring rate coil over springs matched to the Koni shocks for $100 plus shipping .

This front combo is perfect for the daily driver and track car. If you decide on aftermarket sway bars, this is the sweet spot.

PM for photos as it is the Labor Day weekend