Chris_924s

I dont give a rats a$$ what you think..

Feel better Tim? j/k.

Do Saab's still have the ignition key in the center console?? I always thought that was weird.

bloodraven

Wait, weren't all Porsches except the 928 based on a volkswagon anyway? And even so, what is wrong with that? Volkswagons are great cars, even to rivers. I see mroe Jettas and Golfs ridding around than I do civics and eclipses.

And like someone told me...ask him, "So, where is your Porsche?"

Manning

I wasn't refuting that at all. I'm certainly not one of those people that trash Honda/Acura just because there not a Porsche, I was merely saying that I think the 924S is a very capable car and can hold it's own against an ITR. May be down a few on BHP, but our car have really nice handling, even stock (if well maintained).

Actually I have read many articles about the Type R and have ridden in a couple and they are impressive.

BeerBurner

Unless I'm gravely mistaken (and I suppose I could be) I'm certain that the Integra is built on a Civic chassis, much akin to how my old Scirocco was built on a Rabbit chassis. The Integra does have a better engine, tranny and suspension tuning, but they are ultimately from the same branch on the family tree. That's why Integra engines/transmissions drop into Civics so easily.

BB.

Adam Richman

I am sure the original 3G Integra was based off of the Civic chassis. To my point, the ITR was not a lift/transplant off of the 1992 Civic EX rather a rework of the GS-R. Might be minutia but the two cars (Civic EX and ITR) are very different, IIRC [the ITR] actually much more rigid than the GS-R. I always thought it was ingenious that all of the B*Series bottom ends and heads bolted together. I like the idea of a CRV bottom end w/ a Type R head in a jellybean Civic - actually, I like the idea of it in a CRX even better.

turbo944

I've not yet driven a purpose built FWD racer yet, so I can't comment on that side of the coin, but otherwise I've yet to drive a FWD car that wants to oversteer. The Saturn I have now I can toss into oversteer, especially with a full tank of gas, but otherwise they plow like a farm tractor in power on in a corner situations. There's no easy way to get the rear end out and automakers don't want it to come out as understeering is safer for the average motorist. I have driven some darn fast FWD cars. Turbos and non-turbos alike. I can drive them fast and make them corner at the limit, but I just prefer driving a RWD car there. I've not driven enough really fast AWD cars to assess that though. There is no doubt that you can control an RWD car more balancewise in a corner and that they handle better, and there is no doubt that AWD is better than FWD as well. Don't believe it....check out Touring Car racing. BTCC, GTCC, whichever you want. RWD and AWD cars always have to have more weight on them for having those qualities. FWD cars have been allowed to be the lightest and consequently with that they can win races. Since they can be allowed to be the lightest, many have gone that direction believing they can make them handle well enough being lighter to win as less weight with the same power equals better acceleration. To me that says that if the board is making the other cars add weight to slow them down, that they are getting through somewhere faster....has to be in the corners.

The friction circle is still a friction circle for a tire. If you are doing acceleration and cornering and weight transfer goes to the rear as you start to accelerate, the circle diameter gets a bit smaller and limits what you can do. Moving accelerative forces off of those tires means they can devote more of the circle to lateral grip.

Lonely Raven

I read this extensive artcle oneline somewhere when I got into a FWD vs
RWD vs AWD argument with the same guy that inspired me to start this
thread. In the article, some journalist who drove RWD cars forever, was
considering switching to FWD "because they are better, and safer" as
everyone was telling him.

After a few test drives of some prominent FWD cars, he said they started
off well but pulled to one side under pressure, and cornering felt
uncomfortable to him and he couldn't place why.

He managed to corner a BMW designer who said it simply, FWD cars
understeer, and because you are being PULLED by the car, rather then
pushed (RWD) the pivot point where you FEEL what the car is doing is
quite different, generally being a ways away from the driver. With RWD
the pivot point that you FEEL what the car is doing, is almost on the
drivers head. So no matter what the car is doing, you feel it in the seat of
your pants.

There was more to the article, but those are the points that stuck with me.

As you said, understeering is safer for the averge motorist.

I find it funny (sad really, but I laugh at anything) the first heavy Chicago
snow EVER YEAR, the grass around the highways are full of Caddy's and
Lexus who shot themselves off the offramps because they didn't know
how to recover from a slide, or they felt it too late being FWD cars.

My friend who had a big truck and I used to make mucho cash at the
beginning of every winter pulling these guys back onto the road with
his RWD truck and some nylon pulling straps. $20 a pop we'd make about
$300 each in a couple nights.

turbo944

"After a few test drives of some prominent FWD cars, he said they started
off well but pulled to one side under pressure"

That's called torque steer....since the front wheels can turn (steer) the torque will tend to try and move the system to the right as you accelerate hard. A lot of torque steer has been fixed in some of the newer FWD cars, it used to be just awful in some....but when you put a LOT of power through those front tires, you have no choice really but to get some. Same thing that used to kill newbies in the F4U Corsair. Push the throttle all the way forward immediately getting ready to takeoff and the torque reaction from that big propeller at full bite would roll the airplane over and kill the pilot. It wasn't called the ensign eliminator for nothin! Torque is a VERY strong force.

Most people don't know how to drive and most older people now that prefer FWD were taught in school about controlling slides with RWD cars instead of FWD cars and the same techniques don't apply between the two. Same thing with ABS....it scares a lot of drivers when the pedal pulsates and they would let off and others would never engage it, they'd pump their brakes as they'd been taught. I know there was somewhat of a little campaign to educate drivers how to properly use ABS. I can say from personal experience testing it out on cars I did for a school paper (gotta love college level writing classes ) that in some cars like the Mustang GT that came out in 94, that it felt really odd and hearing tires taking turns locking for a moment while the system was looking at the other tires was quite a strange experience when you'd do it the first time.

FWD cars are also not nearly as well balanced front to rear. Acceleration has been really shown to be a super strong point of the 911 series because all the weight is on the rear axle under acceleration.

Oh, for those interested in seeing this stuff in action if you have a hard time visualizing it, go and download Live For Speed www.liveforspeed.com and drive some of the cars in it with FORCE enabled in the suspension settings over on the left side. You can't see your dash while you're driving, you get to see what forces are pushing down on what wheels at what time. It's cool to change your suspension settings and weight balance and watch those cones change size as you adjust the car.

Lonely Raven

Yeah, now that you mention it, the article I read said something about
the front wheel pulling to one side because the axles were of different
lengths, and I think it said this was really bad on that new hot rod Nissan.
I can't think of the name, but yeah.

I can't stand ABS. It scared the crap out of me on the company car I had
when I was with HP computers. They got me a Ford Escape and the first
time I hit the breaks on ice the ABS started pumping. To me it felt like I
had accidentally dropped the truck into park! LOL

Good info though.