This is the kind of trash I have to put up with...
12-07-2003, 08:39 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Originally posted by Fuzzbeaner
Holy crap, Lonely Raven, are you the same guy as in the Overclockers.com forum?
If so....small world....
-Jeff
Holy crap, Lonely Raven, are you the same guy as in the Overclockers.com forum?
If so....small world....
-Jeff
12-07-2003, 09:22 PM
#17
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I don't know that it is that "upity" to say those things, its highly likely you could hear those things - reading here over the past couple of years, it certainly seems that some who own P-cars share this opinion. Is this a "my brother can pick on me but you can't" sort of thing? Whether it was a mistake or no, whether it was a financial savior to the company or no, it really doesn't seem to matter at this point as they no longer make these cars. I don't share this guy's opinion as by the late 80's, it sure seemed to me that the 944 Turbo was every bit a supercar as the 911 Turbo. But certainly the early 924/944 N/A were considered a poor man's Porsche by many. Who cares? If it wasn't less expensive, would as many folks today be able to afford them? Seems to me that a lot of folks are beneficiaries to this perceived value of the car. Just did a kellybluebook lookup (used the same mileage - 100k - and zip code):
1987 Porsche 911 Turbo Coupe 2D Private Party Value $18,850
1987 Porsche 944 Turbo Coupe 2D Private Party Value $4,200 (put one in at 90k miles and every bell and whistle and it bumped to $4,860)
Now I don't know MSRP back in 1986 but I got a good idea that an 87 911 Turbo didn't cost 448% more than a 87 944 Turbo of the same year. Again though, its great for a ton of folks that want these cars that this is the case - I for one am ecstatic that they are this affordable today and for me it takes nothing away from the car.
If I recall correctly when BMW began selling the 318 here, many were up in arms saying that they'd not stay with the marque because they felt betrayed by BMW "cheapening" their product line.
As for disparaging a ITR in response, that's simply uneducated. This, irrespective of its driveline format, is a rather amazing car and piece of technology and thank G-d Honda didn't try make some great-on-paper 0-60, 1/4 mile time car rather a car with an exceptionally rigid chassis, great top end HP for its weight and displacement and very well balanced from the factory. I know my heavily invested 944S has more than it can handle w/ a street legal ITR at Lowes Motor Speedway and the Type R certainly outguns me on the straights (so methinks a 924S isn't that much of a candidate) too.
1987 Porsche 911 Turbo Coupe 2D Private Party Value $18,850
1987 Porsche 944 Turbo Coupe 2D Private Party Value $4,200 (put one in at 90k miles and every bell and whistle and it bumped to $4,860)
Now I don't know MSRP back in 1986 but I got a good idea that an 87 911 Turbo didn't cost 448% more than a 87 944 Turbo of the same year. Again though, its great for a ton of folks that want these cars that this is the case - I for one am ecstatic that they are this affordable today and for me it takes nothing away from the car.
If I recall correctly when BMW began selling the 318 here, many were up in arms saying that they'd not stay with the marque because they felt betrayed by BMW "cheapening" their product line.
As for disparaging a ITR in response, that's simply uneducated. This, irrespective of its driveline format, is a rather amazing car and piece of technology and thank G-d Honda didn't try make some great-on-paper 0-60, 1/4 mile time car rather a car with an exceptionally rigid chassis, great top end HP for its weight and displacement and very well balanced from the factory. I know my heavily invested 944S has more than it can handle w/ a street legal ITR at Lowes Motor Speedway and the Type R certainly outguns me on the straights (so methinks a 924S isn't that much of a candidate) too.
12-07-2003, 09:55 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Blue book is a joke. Try NADA which is what all of the local banks/credit unions use here. It's nearly double that in the NADA book for the 944 Turbo.
No matter how good they handle though, I really dislike the feel of an FWD vehicle. I've driven many of them and never liked any of them for their weird feel. Maybe I'm just too sensitive though
As to others, let them fling their poo if they want to....at the end of the day you are driving a Porsche. To prove what the average schmoe thinks about cars, say to someone "I own a Honda" and then say "I own a Porsche" and see the looks on their faces. Most don't care much about the Honda before you tell them what type it is. Most have other ideas entirely if you say Porsche.
As for handling, in one Excellence magazine on making 924/44/68s handle, they mentioned that in like 77 on the standard tires used on them then and setup properly (not the way they had to monkey with the settings here in the US), that the 924 got something like .89G on a skidpad. That's nothing to sneeze at right there and just imagine what some tweaking, using later 944 series suspension parts and modern tires would do to that number.
Acceleration is a different story.....these cars were built 10+ years apart in one of the biggest times of engine power advances in the history of the automobile. From the end of the 80s till the last couple of years, we have seen even family cars get to 200+ hp on many models, something that many sports cars then didn't have. Heck, a great example of this is the Corvette. At the start of the 80s, they were lucky to have 160-170hp. They got it up over 200 with the C4 in the 80s, now they are pushing 400+.
No matter how good they handle though, I really dislike the feel of an FWD vehicle. I've driven many of them and never liked any of them for their weird feel. Maybe I'm just too sensitive though
As to others, let them fling their poo if they want to....at the end of the day you are driving a Porsche. To prove what the average schmoe thinks about cars, say to someone "I own a Honda" and then say "I own a Porsche" and see the looks on their faces. Most don't care much about the Honda before you tell them what type it is. Most have other ideas entirely if you say Porsche.
As for handling, in one Excellence magazine on making 924/44/68s handle, they mentioned that in like 77 on the standard tires used on them then and setup properly (not the way they had to monkey with the settings here in the US), that the 924 got something like .89G on a skidpad. That's nothing to sneeze at right there and just imagine what some tweaking, using later 944 series suspension parts and modern tires would do to that number.
Acceleration is a different story.....these cars were built 10+ years apart in one of the biggest times of engine power advances in the history of the automobile. From the end of the 80s till the last couple of years, we have seen even family cars get to 200+ hp on many models, something that many sports cars then didn't have. Heck, a great example of this is the Corvette. At the start of the 80s, they were lucky to have 160-170hp. They got it up over 200 with the C4 in the 80s, now they are pushing 400+.
12-07-2003, 10:54 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
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I personally could care less if the 944 was a porsche or a vw. I was in the market for it because it was an inexpensive sports car that handled well, not because I was trying to impress someone at a country club.
12-07-2003, 11:11 PM
#21
Drifting
Hey Richman! very nice, well-reasoned, and EDUCATED response!
My opinion: The quality of his car (and he has a GREAT car) has no bearing on the value or performance value of yours. To compare the two is using a CAR to compensate for something else... (wink, wink)
The ITR is awesome, but you can buy how many 924S's and run them hard as track ho's before you reach the purchase price of the ITR? There are many ways to rank cars, and bang-for-the-buck is a favorite of mine.
Besides, what do you care if the 924/944 line was an embarrassment for Porsche? I'm frankly embarrassed BY Porsche, after the last 4 years, and I'd still buy/modify and drive my 951 into the ground if it had a Wolfsburg emblem on the hood. In fact, it would be considered a GREAT car by many outside the Porsche circle, if it DIDN'T have to live up to the Porsche prickery and high-falootin'ness.
My opinion: The quality of his car (and he has a GREAT car) has no bearing on the value or performance value of yours. To compare the two is using a CAR to compensate for something else... (wink, wink)
The ITR is awesome, but you can buy how many 924S's and run them hard as track ho's before you reach the purchase price of the ITR? There are many ways to rank cars, and bang-for-the-buck is a favorite of mine.
Besides, what do you care if the 924/944 line was an embarrassment for Porsche? I'm frankly embarrassed BY Porsche, after the last 4 years, and I'd still buy/modify and drive my 951 into the ground if it had a Wolfsburg emblem on the hood. In fact, it would be considered a GREAT car by many outside the Porsche circle, if it DIDN'T have to live up to the Porsche prickery and high-falootin'ness.
12-07-2003, 11:19 PM
#22
Unbannable
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For the record, I'd like to point out that I was, in no way, picking on the Type-R. I happen to love those cars. However, it seems kind of hypocritical for him to criticize the P-cars' "economy car" lineage when he himself drives a car that is based on a Honda Civic.
BB.
BB.
12-08-2003, 10:22 AM
#23
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BB, sure its silly to get into a pissing match over "mine's better cause its got a badge" be it a Porsche badge or an "R" badge. I think ahofam123 and keith said it much better than I could. I'd have bought my S irrespective of who made it - actually I often wish mine said Volkswagen or Audi instead.
turbo944, not following the logic that regardless of how well it handles, FWD feels weird. FWD racecars are exceptionally loose (oversteer) cars and that might be scarry to some but in the end, even the most evil oversteering FWD car and a 944 aren't that different to drive. Its just much easier to drive the 944 (or a Miata for that matter) faster IMO. I have only auto-xed RWD so I don't know how much different an FFer would be (but imagine its all in the setup). As most of the FFs I have had were street cars until a few years ago, I can't imagine that anything on the street would make these cars off-putting.
P.S. BB, I believe however you are thinking of the RSX-S that shares platforms w/ the Civic. The Integra Type R was a rework of the Integra (GS-R I *thought*) platform with structural rigidity improvements and a redesigned head (and perhaps bottom end as well but not sure if its used elsewhere). I think this (RSX) sharing of the Civic platform and going to a Mac strut suspension had many in the Honda camp asking WTF?
turbo944, not following the logic that regardless of how well it handles, FWD feels weird. FWD racecars are exceptionally loose (oversteer) cars and that might be scarry to some but in the end, even the most evil oversteering FWD car and a 944 aren't that different to drive. Its just much easier to drive the 944 (or a Miata for that matter) faster IMO. I have only auto-xed RWD so I don't know how much different an FFer would be (but imagine its all in the setup). As most of the FFs I have had were street cars until a few years ago, I can't imagine that anything on the street would make these cars off-putting.
P.S. BB, I believe however you are thinking of the RSX-S that shares platforms w/ the Civic. The Integra Type R was a rework of the Integra (GS-R I *thought*) platform with structural rigidity improvements and a redesigned head (and perhaps bottom end as well but not sure if its used elsewhere). I think this (RSX) sharing of the Civic platform and going to a Mac strut suspension had many in the Honda camp asking WTF?
12-08-2003, 10:25 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
I hope they realize that the 944 saved Porsche during the "lean" years. Also, I'm 35 and have owned lots of cars. From a quality of materials standpoint my S2 is the best built car I've ever owned. It looks just like the day it came off the assembly line and everything has a "solid" feel to it. Don't know how to better describe it.
12-08-2003, 11:31 AM
#25
Racer
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Yeah, I agree with that too. Even though my 24S hasn't been properly
(cosmeticaly) maintained, it still looks good.
My favorite is the solid thump sound of the doors closing. Especially on
the '81 924 I had a few years ago. It just sounded like a bank vault
closing.
I'm not sure about ALL of the car being made that well though. Judging
from how often we have to replace our waterpumps, ball joint problems,
dash cracking, seats tearing, sun-roof leaking, relays popping, I'm sure
there's more that I've missed.
On the flip side, my SAAB 900 Turbo, same year as my 924S has over
300,000 on the same engine and body. Starting to rust...starting to!
As far as I can tell, and from what I gathered from the previous owner
that was a SPG racer, the waterpump, alternator, starter, and possibly
even the clutch are original!! I doubt the clutch is, but the previous owners
put 100,000 without touching the clutch, and except for my girlfriend
glazing it a little with her crappy driving, it's still going on strong!
(cosmeticaly) maintained, it still looks good.
My favorite is the solid thump sound of the doors closing. Especially on
the '81 924 I had a few years ago. It just sounded like a bank vault
closing.
I'm not sure about ALL of the car being made that well though. Judging
from how often we have to replace our waterpumps, ball joint problems,
dash cracking, seats tearing, sun-roof leaking, relays popping, I'm sure
there's more that I've missed.
On the flip side, my SAAB 900 Turbo, same year as my 924S has over
300,000 on the same engine and body. Starting to rust...starting to!
As far as I can tell, and from what I gathered from the previous owner
that was a SPG racer, the waterpump, alternator, starter, and possibly
even the clutch are original!! I doubt the clutch is, but the previous owners
put 100,000 without touching the clutch, and except for my girlfriend
glazing it a little with her crappy driving, it's still going on strong!
12-08-2003, 11:58 AM
#26
Nerd Herder
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Originally posted by Lonely Raven
Honestly, his car is pretty wicked. If I had more then a 924S I'd be glad
to take him on.
Honestly, his car is pretty wicked. If I had more then a 924S I'd be glad
to take him on.
It'll still outhandle most of what's on the road- so what if 0-60 isnt as great- races are won in the turns..
The badge doesnt matter- the smile on your face tells the whole story when your driving.
what's a country club?
12-08-2003, 12:01 PM
#27
Racer
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Yeah, driving home the night I bougt either one of my 924 I had this
silly grin.
There is just something about my Porsches that I love. Which is why I
keep turning back to them.
silly grin.
There is just something about my Porsches that I love. Which is why I
keep turning back to them.
12-08-2003, 12:09 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
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Interesting thread here, and I see it's tough for everyone to get their points off in a succint-enough manner on this subject.
SO, in summary: there's a reason why RWD stands for Right-Wheel Drive, right? RWD is so beautifullly different than Wrong Wheel Drive that I will probably never go back.
SO, in summary: there's a reason why RWD stands for Right-Wheel Drive, right? RWD is so beautifullly different than Wrong Wheel Drive that I will probably never go back.
12-08-2003, 12:25 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
LOL, I can concur on the SAABs. I have owned 5 including 2 SPGs. Great cars. But remember, the dash cracks, etc etc all come from neglect most of the time. Anyway, I might buy another SAAB if I can get over the GM thing.
