Jay Gratton

I think we are going to get a good debate going here!!!!!!!

butzip

Indeed we are.....

I'm no factory test driver but I've owned a 56' 356 conti / 69' 911E / 88' 944 turbo S / 83' SC / and currently own a 67' 912 (original family owners Dad) and an 88' carrera cab. I have tracked the 944, SC and the 912 and the only car I continue to DE is the 912. Why?? for all the reasons that Harry mentioned. Now I agree the 911 is a much better all around car. And being a 912 owner we naturally feel the need to defend it given its heady lineage.

I used to take the SC and the 912 to the same track day and switch between them. It was an open track so I'd run one for 45min or so then come in and switch and so on through out the day. Heaven. simply put, the 912 was more fun. #1 the 901 trans is b.e.a.utiful, I can heel toe that car just by thinking about it. conversely the 911 (stock) felt heavy, it was very inconsistent shifting with the 915 which was damn unnerving when entering where you're relying on the brakes AND the downshift to nail the corner. Speaking of brakes, the brake fade on the 911 was evident although they are superior otherwise. The 912 I can run all day at the limit and they are always the same, no fade. Most all of the above commentary is due to weight. A stock SC/carrera will require bigger t-bars/sway bars to feel nimble but you'll still have the 915 to deal with. On the other hand the only thing I've done to the 912 is lower it and build the engine and add DOT R rubber for the track. I can tell you first hand that through Big Bend @ Limerock I can hang with any car 996 TT / C4S doesn't matter. I can seriously out brake them, push them to track out then wave good bye rinse and repeat. If I had 50 more hp, I would lead my run group relatively uncontested. I was experimenting @ the last DE event with where I staged. First I staged dead last to see how many cars I could get by before being lapped. That failed miserably as I simply got stuck in long trains where people forgot they had to point people by........ So I started staging @ the front, first on the grid, and low and behold myself in a 115hp 912 a 996C4S / 996TT and a 993 left the pack in the first 2 laps and started catching the back markers within 5 laps or so. Now I realize we are not really racing and it's not exactly Hans Stuck in the other cars but it's my yard stick of performance. I'm running in yellow run group so presumably these folks have run well enouhg to progress from green. BTW - the chief instructor was in the C4S behind me and was pretty bent that his driver had nothing for me in the brakes and turns. Enough so he mentioned it afterwards. People don't expect much from these little cars, but I like to surprise them by showing them my bumperettes

Jay Gratton

We will now be hearing from the 911 folks! GAME ON!!!!!

(great points from the 912 side so far)

hoffman912

amen Butzip! great story!!

hoffman912

oh.. fwiw, i went out with some of the R Gruppe guys this weekend. talking very hot early 911 cars with similar weight. when we stopped for a break they asked if my car was heavily modified beacuse they were suprised i could keep up and didnt get way behind. My car only has a hot cam, shasta pistons (big bore J&E with stock compression), light weight pully, aluminum oil cooler and full flow oil system. its probably about where butzips hp range is. and is a bit hotter than stock. I had it floored at 6,000 RPMS going up the hills and in the straights to keep up (was behind them a bit, but not smoked), but in the twisties i caught up right with them and they couldnt shake me. (even though i could have done so in the twisties, i didnt dare think of trying to get up their *** or pass anyone, as these were public back roads, and one of the cars was an all original immaculate 73 911RS which is worth more than my life -so i wouldnt dare do somthing completely stupid).

In the straights and up hills is where i was weak, and had to really push it all the way to keep up. but in the twisties it was on like donkey kong.

it was a great time all around!

Jay Gratton

Sounds like a really good time. I love going on Porsche drives with a big group. Nothing better!!!!!!

kurt M

Where do I start? I have been driving my 912 on track since 1999. Started out in Green with a tired motor and stock suspension. Worked with a great motor builder (Tim B) and we built a slightly improved power motor that was still fully streetable and ran on pump gas. Tweaked up the suspension and learned to drive some. I still get killed by many folks on the big tracks but even there I take plenty of newer and higher HP cars from SCs to 944turbos and 996s. On the technical tracks I hold my own just fine. In the instructors group I have chased down and passed a supercharged C4 that was riding on new Hoosiers among others that I happen to catch sleeping. This was not a Green student this was a fellow instructor. The 912 has a balance and a feel that the 911s don’t have. You have the great braking and throttle steering that makes the 911 great on the track without the down sides of a bunch of *** end weight.
A few years back at a Car Guys and still a student I was running down a BMW in each session. He was very slow to give passes and I had to get up tight and all in his mirrors in the corners to pester him. This went on for 3 or 4 runs. Late in the afternoon I was sitting about 20 feet from the 912 which had the rear lid open to cool the motor some. Some guy comes up to the car looks in and exclaims “damnit” and walks away. A little later his instructor stops by and tells me that his student was convinced that I had a 6 in the trunk and only left the 912 badge on the car. He was so distraught that he was getting taken by a pushrod 4 that the instructor was talking him out of bagging it. The instructor asked me to lay off him on Sunday.

I like the 912 and how it handles but it there is little place for it in PCA racing and I plan to race in a year or two when the home life settles down some. I did not want to mess it up any more than I have and am building a track only car and then restoring the 912 back to street only use. The car I am building will be very light weight and I plan to run a slightly built up 2.7 6 cyl in it. I hope to keep the great aspects of the 912 and add safety and a little bit of power for the straights.

butzip

Yup love it!! If I could just figure out how to make 50 - 80 more hp without adding weight or doing some odd ball transplant..........

Jay Laifman

Forget the 912, go with this one that is clearly giving that 911 a hard time!:

hoffman912

now thats a super beetle! what year and specs? i have a feeling since they have the same livery (according to banner on top of windows) that this is probably a staged parade lap.. but still very cool.

Jay Laifman

Awe, come on. If you guys are going to tell stories about '60s 912s keeping up with 996's and RS's, can't we believe a VW Bug (aka Herbie) is going to keep up with an 80's 911!?

I just happened across the picture. I don't know any other details.

butzip

That bugs probably got a 3.6 in it!!

Jay Gratton

Wow, a 3.6 on that short wheel base! Talk about tail happy.

butzip

I'd be willing to tame it.

Jay Gratton

Oh yeah, I would be willing to give it a shot as well. Personally, I have always wanted a short wheel base 911!!!!!! - Jay