Dyno - 447 RWHP on CIS
07-31-2003, 04:07 PM
#16
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Thanks to all of you for your responses. I have these follow-ups:
To Steve Weiner, who wrote:
I shim the FD based on the A/F numbers on the dyno. The actual value is not as important as maintaining proper fueling.
Do you think that there’s a chance of making my CIS system work on my engine after some additional tweaking, without the need for additional injectors or “many expensive parts?”
To M42 Racer, who wrote:
I went with Performance Development's Injector blocks. They are the lower injector blocks, but have ports for both the stock Injector and an additional electronic injector.
Very interesting. I have not heard of them. Can you give me a web link or phone? Do these injector blocks keep the whole intake plenum at exactly the same height, with the CIS injectors in exactly their stock location? If so that sounds perfect for what I’d like to do. Are the blocks aluminum? Can they be opened a bit to match my porting? How about the other injectors – are they standard electronic injectors such as may be used by a stand-alone EFI system, or are they something more unique? Approximately what do the injector blocks and injectors cost?
I decided after I was in the build to eliminate the CIS altogether. I run the electronic Injectors and the CIS (930)manifold. It gave me 508ft/Lbs torque and 503 HP. Very simple upgrade using all the stock pieces.
Wow, those are some great numbers. Are you talking at the crank? So, are you using their electronic control system only for the fuel? And your ignition side is separate? Is there MAP sensing to control fuel? I assume your A/F is proper and stable?
To Brent930, who wrote:
I have been thinking about that since the dyno day and trying to figure out how I can lean out yet keep the fuel at the top end. I know I could use an AIC controlling the control pressure by way of an injector to map out the fuel better. Or go back to the stock WUR and see if that will help any but I doubt it will be good enough. I think the only way is to use an injector to map out the fuel.
For your published dyno run, were you using the Rice fuel enrichment? What are your impressions of this device? Can you further explain what you mean by “use an injector to map out the fuel?
To Steve Weiner, who wrote:
I shim the FD based on the A/F numbers on the dyno. The actual value is not as important as maintaining proper fueling.
Do you think that there’s a chance of making my CIS system work on my engine after some additional tweaking, without the need for additional injectors or “many expensive parts?”
To M42 Racer, who wrote:
I went with Performance Development's Injector blocks. They are the lower injector blocks, but have ports for both the stock Injector and an additional electronic injector.
Very interesting. I have not heard of them. Can you give me a web link or phone? Do these injector blocks keep the whole intake plenum at exactly the same height, with the CIS injectors in exactly their stock location? If so that sounds perfect for what I’d like to do. Are the blocks aluminum? Can they be opened a bit to match my porting? How about the other injectors – are they standard electronic injectors such as may be used by a stand-alone EFI system, or are they something more unique? Approximately what do the injector blocks and injectors cost?
I decided after I was in the build to eliminate the CIS altogether. I run the electronic Injectors and the CIS (930)manifold. It gave me 508ft/Lbs torque and 503 HP. Very simple upgrade using all the stock pieces.
Wow, those are some great numbers. Are you talking at the crank? So, are you using their electronic control system only for the fuel? And your ignition side is separate? Is there MAP sensing to control fuel? I assume your A/F is proper and stable?
To Brent930, who wrote:
I have been thinking about that since the dyno day and trying to figure out how I can lean out yet keep the fuel at the top end. I know I could use an AIC controlling the control pressure by way of an injector to map out the fuel better. Or go back to the stock WUR and see if that will help any but I doubt it will be good enough. I think the only way is to use an injector to map out the fuel.
For your published dyno run, were you using the Rice fuel enrichment? What are your impressions of this device? Can you further explain what you mean by “use an injector to map out the fuel?
07-31-2003, 05:02 PM
#17
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Yes, I was using the rice fueler. Now with the extra fuel I have, I might not need enrichmnet anymore. Otherwise with the stock WUR (doesn't enrich until .5bar) people have reported using a wide band O2 that it goes lean at lower boost levels which is bad and one of the reasons Lee designed his WUR. Anyhow instead of just 2 control pressure levels used to control the amount of fuel across the rpm range you can just use the stock WUR for cold pressure. Then parrallel a fuel injector across the WUR to then control the warm and full throttle enrichment that will vary the pressure based on rpms and boost which will enable you to vary the fuel curve
) Several people have already done this which is how I know. I plan on using the Greddy Rebic V so I don't need a laptop everytime I need to tune the system. The only problem is I'm broke right now so it will have to wait.
Brent
) Several people have already done this which is how I know. I plan on using the Greddy Rebic V so I don't need a laptop everytime I need to tune the system. The only problem is I'm broke right now so it will have to wait.Brent
07-31-2003, 11:13 PM
#18
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Rob;
I'm glad to see you up and running.... I'd be looking for a EFI system at those numbers and boost settings. You can back the boost down to try to get the fuel settled in.
Brent;
With your dyno chart posted, you need to watch for secondary combustion in your turbo! I think you are near it now....
I'm glad to see you up and running.... I'd be looking for a EFI system at those numbers and boost settings. You can back the boost down to try to get the fuel settled in.
Brent;
With your dyno chart posted, you need to watch for secondary combustion in your turbo! I think you are near it now....
08-01-2003, 01:31 AM
#20
RobS,
Injector blocks are made from Aluminim, can be ported and are the stock height. The electronic Injector is in the stock position, and the mechanical Injector is moved around under the manifold. they use a special adapter and AN lines for the mechanical Injector. There is a Fuel rail which bolts to the manifold. When I first started my upgrade, I was going to use the Turbolink controller, by Link. It controls the Injectors, Boost and retards the timing. All 3 areas are fully mappable just like a full EFI system. Because I went to full EFI, I did not use this. In my case, the mechanical Injector hole in the Injector block is plugged and a larger electronic injector fitted. The engine bay looks very empty.
BTW, I know that the Turbolink is also used to control a frequency Injector, just like the Andial system. The Andial system just adds fuel evrywhere based upon the % you select by the switch. The Turbolink controls the fequency valve just like a EFI system controls an Injector. The fuel pressure is adjusted based upon RPM, manifold pressure and TPS if fitted. Now you can map the fequency Injector. Pretty neat way of doing it. This way you don't need the Injector blocks. I'm not sure the amount of adjustment/ HP you need. This way may be great for some, and the additional injectors for others. To answer your questions, the Injectors are normal Bosch type. Cost, I'm not sure, but if you call them, I'm sure they can tell you. Tel # 949 646 7461. My HP is at the crank. I wanted a torque engine and not HP. I also wanted to use as much of my CIS stuff as possible, but have the response of EFI.
Injector blocks are made from Aluminim, can be ported and are the stock height. The electronic Injector is in the stock position, and the mechanical Injector is moved around under the manifold. they use a special adapter and AN lines for the mechanical Injector. There is a Fuel rail which bolts to the manifold. When I first started my upgrade, I was going to use the Turbolink controller, by Link. It controls the Injectors, Boost and retards the timing. All 3 areas are fully mappable just like a full EFI system. Because I went to full EFI, I did not use this. In my case, the mechanical Injector hole in the Injector block is plugged and a larger electronic injector fitted. The engine bay looks very empty.
BTW, I know that the Turbolink is also used to control a frequency Injector, just like the Andial system. The Andial system just adds fuel evrywhere based upon the % you select by the switch. The Turbolink controls the fequency valve just like a EFI system controls an Injector. The fuel pressure is adjusted based upon RPM, manifold pressure and TPS if fitted. Now you can map the fequency Injector. Pretty neat way of doing it. This way you don't need the Injector blocks. I'm not sure the amount of adjustment/ HP you need. This way may be great for some, and the additional injectors for others. To answer your questions, the Injectors are normal Bosch type. Cost, I'm not sure, but if you call them, I'm sure they can tell you. Tel # 949 646 7461. My HP is at the crank. I wanted a torque engine and not HP. I also wanted to use as much of my CIS stuff as possible, but have the response of EFI.
08-01-2003, 04:45 AM
#21
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That Turbolink device looks very interesting, I'll try one here when the next Turbo motor rolls in the door.
Rob; It will help somewhat, but you are currently severely lean and I'm afraid that if your FP is raised to help the top end, you will be far too rich, off-boost and at lower throttle openings.
The issue here is that doing the full-boost dyno runs to make the changes in its current conditions, you are really at risk of buying new pistons very soon.
Rob; It will help somewhat, but you are currently severely lean and I'm afraid that if your FP is raised to help the top end, you will be far too rich, off-boost and at lower throttle openings.
The issue here is that doing the full-boost dyno runs to make the changes in its current conditions, you are really at risk of buying new pistons very soon.
Last edited by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems; 08-01-2003 at 09:32 PM.
08-01-2003, 01:19 PM
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Brent;
Is your turbine housing white (when cold)? First clue for me. Check your gaskets, are they cooked? If you troll the net you will see many people making turbine engines out of K27's. My point is: try not to make a jet engine out of your turbo...... (smile)
Is your turbine housing white (when cold)? First clue for me. Check your gaskets, are they cooked? If you troll the net you will see many people making turbine engines out of K27's. My point is: try not to make a jet engine out of your turbo...... (smile)
08-01-2003, 02:23 PM
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Kevin,
Here is a picture I took this early afternoon, last night was the last time I drove the car since. So what do you think?
By the way my EGT's are very low, 1300 for cruise (highway) otherwise around 1200 and around 1400-1425 max at full power. I'm thinking they should be around 50 deg. higher but this makes sense since I'm so rich.
Brent
Here is a picture I took this early afternoon, last night was the last time I drove the car since. So what do you think?
By the way my EGT's are very low, 1300 for cruise (highway) otherwise around 1200 and around 1400-1425 max at full power. I'm thinking they should be around 50 deg. higher but this makes sense since I'm so rich.
Brent
08-01-2003, 03:21 PM
#24
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Thanks, M42Racer. I’m very interested in what you did. Though a full stand-alone EFI system, with Carrera manifolds, throttle body and fuel rails is likely to be the best fix, I’m not sure I’m up for the cost (or work) at this point. Hence, the ability to retain some of the CIS components is attractive, especially because I’m not so interested in extracting any more output from the engine – I just want a reliable powerplant for the track. But I’m also not wild about having a dual-fuel engine where some of the fuel management is from the CIS and some is from another independent source (though that may be the cheapest way to go). One thing for sure: I better do something about the problem. According to Steve W, I’ll have a meltdown soon if I don’t, and even if could I fatten up the CIS sufficiently so it survives the top end, I’ll have (according to Kevin) a turbine! Maybe I’ll need some nomex…
08-01-2003, 10:42 PM
#25
Your very welcome. Be safe, and go slow with your changes. I've been coached by one of the best there is. I am very happy with my engine upgrade. By the sounds of things we are similar in our needs. I wanted Torque not HP, I wanted the crisp throttle repsone you get from Electronics, and I wanted to see if I could get all this by retaining as much of the 930 system as possible. Performance Developments came up with some very neat parts to make this all happen for me. My next step is to open up the 930 manifold, a bigger TB and better Intercooler. Multi butterflies would be great, but there is nothing I can touch with my budget.
08-06-2003, 10:37 PM
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In my efforts to determine my CIS problems, I have learned the following today:
I did a flow test:
1300cc of fuel over a 30 second period
Pressure Test:
Control Pressure - measured warm at idle - 3.95 bar
System Pressure - 6.1 Bar
OK, somebody tell me if I am in spec or not.
I have Euro CIS, and am running lean above 5200 RPM. Maxing out on Air/Fuel at 13.71. Fuel Distributor adjustment screw (3mm) is maxxed out.
I did a flow test:
1300cc of fuel over a 30 second period
Pressure Test:
Control Pressure - measured warm at idle - 3.95 bar
System Pressure - 6.1 Bar
OK, somebody tell me if I am in spec or not.
I have Euro CIS, and am running lean above 5200 RPM. Maxing out on Air/Fuel at 13.71. Fuel Distributor adjustment screw (3mm) is maxxed out.
08-06-2003, 11:37 PM
#28
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Since you have the same car as myself I can tell you this.
Sounds like your pumps are good and flowing fuel well.
Your warm control pressure is too high(this could be a bad sign), what about your full throttle enrichment pressure?
System pressure is ok but at the low end of the spec. This won't be your problem but I like to have mine at 6.6-6.7bar. You can re shim the valve which is on the right side of the fuel head. More shims (washers) higher pressure but it doesn't take much and even a thicker washer will bump you up to that range.
You should be no where near maxing out the fuel mixture adj. screw or you would be so pig rich your car would choke or not even run at idle??? This is for sure a bad sign.
How much power are you running? What mods do you have? I know CIS very well and can probably solve your problem. I can even do fuel enrichment with a stock WUR if you need it. Let me know,
Brent
Sounds like your pumps are good and flowing fuel well.
Your warm control pressure is too high(this could be a bad sign), what about your full throttle enrichment pressure?
System pressure is ok but at the low end of the spec. This won't be your problem but I like to have mine at 6.6-6.7bar. You can re shim the valve which is on the right side of the fuel head. More shims (washers) higher pressure but it doesn't take much and even a thicker washer will bump you up to that range.
You should be no where near maxing out the fuel mixture adj. screw or you would be so pig rich your car would choke or not even run at idle??? This is for sure a bad sign.
How much power are you running? What mods do you have? I know CIS very well and can probably solve your problem. I can even do fuel enrichment with a stock WUR if you need it. Let me know,
Brent
08-07-2003, 12:22 AM
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The things I mentioned need to be corrected because you have a probelm. You shouldn't be running lean with the power your running even with a stock WUR and the CO% turned up. It sounds like your WUR is most likely bad. Check your fuel flow from the head and on boost enrichment and let me know.
Brent
Brent