Stock vs Modified
02-01-2002, 08:41 PM
#1
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stock vs Modified
Hello All:
I am beginning my search for a 930 and have been reading all of your interesting posts. 930 pilots are a very informed group of owners!
My main observation is that most of you eventually tinker a little with your cars. Would you recommend I search for a car that has already been upgraded, or a bone stock one to start on my own. Any caveats? Of course, let's assume that all cars considered will be solid cars with records and history. Any comments would be most appreciated.
I am beginning my search for a 930 and have been reading all of your interesting posts. 930 pilots are a very informed group of owners!
My main observation is that most of you eventually tinker a little with your cars. Would you recommend I search for a car that has already been upgraded, or a bone stock one to start on my own. Any caveats? Of course, let's assume that all cars considered will be solid cars with records and history. Any comments would be most appreciated.
02-01-2002, 09:08 PM
#2
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Steve,
If it were me I would rather do the upgrades my self. That way you know you are starting out with a good base, and how long the mods have been on there. Big HP 930s are a tricky beast and without proper care will have short lived lives. If I were to find one modified I would go through it with a fine tooth comb. Check everything and do a leak down test WARM. You always save money by getting a car with all the goodies. This is almost always a loss for the owner as mods are hard to recoup your money on. Either way can be a win/win situation, then again either could be a real pain in the ****. Good Luck!
Stephen
930 TT
89 C4 3.8
81 931
If it were me I would rather do the upgrades my self. That way you know you are starting out with a good base, and how long the mods have been on there. Big HP 930s are a tricky beast and without proper care will have short lived lives. If I were to find one modified I would go through it with a fine tooth comb. Check everything and do a leak down test WARM. You always save money by getting a car with all the goodies. This is almost always a loss for the owner as mods are hard to recoup your money on. Either way can be a win/win situation, then again either could be a real pain in the ****. Good Luck!
Stephen
930 TT
89 C4 3.8
81 931
02-04-2002, 08:22 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a tough call. From a financial standpoint, you are probably better served finding a properly modified car that checks out as sellers can never get out the money they put in. For example, a friend of mine has an 89 RUF 930 with something like 35,000 miles on it that he is looking to sell in the 45-50K range. This car has all the RUF mods, such as 3.4 displacement, RUF cams, RUF intercooler, variable electronic boost, fuel enrichment, K-27 Turbo, etc. and is a 5 speed. The car is fully optioned as well. Now you may be able to find a really clean 930 (although not an 89) in the 30-35K range, but would be more than 15K from getting your car to the RUF specs. This is just an example as you can probably find a nicely modified 4 speed 86-88 911 turbo with low miles for around 40K.
Now, on the other hand, doing the modifications yourself (even if installed at a shop), researching and choosing the parts, etc. can be very fun and rewarding. This is what I did. I enjoyed it, but in the future I would likely buy a properly modified car. In either case, make sure you drive some well modified cars during your search so you have a feel for what can be done. A stock 930 does not compare at all to a well modified car.
Now, on the other hand, doing the modifications yourself (even if installed at a shop), researching and choosing the parts, etc. can be very fun and rewarding. This is what I did. I enjoyed it, but in the future I would likely buy a properly modified car. In either case, make sure you drive some well modified cars during your search so you have a feel for what can be done. A stock 930 does not compare at all to a well modified car.
02-04-2002, 08:48 PM
#4
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are there any advantages in looking for 86-89 vs the 78-79 930's? Aside from the 5 speed in 89, is the 3.3L is essentially the same car? I am torn between modified/stock! I plan to modify, so it would be nice to get one all finished and ready to enjoy.(Not that a stock 930 is not enjoyable !)
Steve
Steve
02-04-2002, 09:04 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve - the engine is the same, although I assume some gremlins may have been worked out over the years. The differences in 86-89 are mostly cosmetic: the steering wheel is different, the climate control vents were upgraded (so the dash is a bit different), 87 introduced the thinner headlight rings, etc. I think there are a few mechanical improvements if I remember correctly from my research, but nothing major. The biggest advantage of the newer cars is that they are newer and thus less susceptible to age related issues (cracked hoses, seals, etc.) Of course the older ones should be cheaper. The 89 RUF 911 Turbo I mentioned is local to you (San Jose) if you have an interest in that route. I have driven that car and it is the nicest 911 Turbo I have driven in.
02-04-2002, 11:19 PM
#6
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks ZCAT3! I've enjoyed your posts over the time I decided to buy a 930. Actually, I was beginning to look for a older Ferrari, but my eye kept wandering back to the 930. Ferrari's are nice, BUT, there is no substitute ; ) My biggest challenge seems to find enough cars to view! I would imagine that owners don't really get rid of these cars unless they absolutley have to. I know I wouldn't! If you have any suggestions on finding more listings, let me know. I have been checking at the PCA adds, Panorama, Excellence, eBay, and Autotrader.com It's a slow process, but I'm sure it's worth the work. Thanks again for the info, and I'll keep you all posted with the search. I hope I can be a owner by this summer...
Cheers!
Steve
Cheers!
Steve
02-05-2002, 01:01 AM
#7
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Steve,
There were some difference that will play a big part in upgrades in the future. The biggest is the injection on all 78/79 US cars was the same as the Euro. The only difference between the US and Euro car was DOT equipment. The injection is much larger than the 86-89 and hence will support HP close to if not 475HP. The later cars need a lot of help to get near here and in fact will really stretch the car close to its limits. It can be combated, but at the end of the day the system has samller, injectors, lines and fuel head. You can tell which cars have what by the color. Black is the big version and a silver fuel head is the small version. Not to mention the lines are about half the size.
Stephen
There were some difference that will play a big part in upgrades in the future. The biggest is the injection on all 78/79 US cars was the same as the Euro. The only difference between the US and Euro car was DOT equipment. The injection is much larger than the 86-89 and hence will support HP close to if not 475HP. The later cars need a lot of help to get near here and in fact will really stretch the car close to its limits. It can be combated, but at the end of the day the system has samller, injectors, lines and fuel head. You can tell which cars have what by the color. Black is the big version and a silver fuel head is the small version. Not to mention the lines are about half the size.
Stephen
Trending Topics
02-05-2002, 02:29 AM
#8
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks PHD. I guess in the long run, my preference would be a clean 79 to start with. This info pushes me even more. I have come across several threads about the CIS being one of the major weak links of the 3.3L. Are you familiar with the motec swap? Is it a reliable/reasonable upgrade? Either way, the thought of 400+hp is so tempting!. I must find my 930 by summer!
Thanks for the info. All of this is going into the database for my purchase.
Cheers!
Steve
Thanks for the info. All of this is going into the database for my purchase.
Cheers!
Steve
02-05-2002, 10:31 AM
#9
Rennlist Lifetime Member
Steve,
We don't use Motec, however we do the Electromotive swap. TecI/II depending on twin plug or signal plug versions. We use the 3.2 intake and some custom wiring and hosing and you are set. The thing is the CIS can be very reliable at 400HP without any issues. I wouldn't worry about that. The EFI swap is very expensive if done right as it takes hours to set the program. The install is very straight forward with the few issues of plumbing, but the rest is common sense. The issue with any of the swaps are they as good as the tuner. Make sure if you go this route that your tuner is very familiar with the setup they are using. Programing takes some thought process and experience with the system. FWIW there is a guy on the turbo board and the Rennlist boards trying to sell a 78 930 withj lots -O- goodies for 20K! I have watched him drop his price 10 K over the last year. He got stuck in the declining market and can't seem to sell it. Might be worth looking into. 20K for a good condition 930 is not a bad place to start.
Stephen
We don't use Motec, however we do the Electromotive swap. TecI/II depending on twin plug or signal plug versions. We use the 3.2 intake and some custom wiring and hosing and you are set. The thing is the CIS can be very reliable at 400HP without any issues. I wouldn't worry about that. The EFI swap is very expensive if done right as it takes hours to set the program. The install is very straight forward with the few issues of plumbing, but the rest is common sense. The issue with any of the swaps are they as good as the tuner. Make sure if you go this route that your tuner is very familiar with the setup they are using. Programing takes some thought process and experience with the system. FWIW there is a guy on the turbo board and the Rennlist boards trying to sell a 78 930 withj lots -O- goodies for 20K! I have watched him drop his price 10 K over the last year. He got stuck in the declining market and can't seem to sell it. Might be worth looking into. 20K for a good condition 930 is not a bad place to start.
Stephen
02-05-2002, 12:08 PM
#10
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PHD:
Thanks for the update. I think that I'll probably run the car w/o a major swap like this until I get some seat time and learn how to drive the 930 at maybe 75% of it's limits. I am still learning how to operate my Carrera at it's higher limits... I'm sure it will be hard to wipe the grin off my face after any drive!
I'll see if I can find this fellow on the boards. That 78 sounds like a terrific find if it's healthy! If you come across him again, I'd appreciate a post. I'll be searching today for him. Thanks again.
Steve
eager 930 buyer...
Thanks for the update. I think that I'll probably run the car w/o a major swap like this until I get some seat time and learn how to drive the 930 at maybe 75% of it's limits. I am still learning how to operate my Carrera at it's higher limits... I'm sure it will be hard to wipe the grin off my face after any drive!
I'll see if I can find this fellow on the boards. That 78 sounds like a terrific find if it's healthy! If you come across him again, I'd appreciate a post. I'll be searching today for him. Thanks again.
Steve
eager 930 buyer...
02-05-2002, 03:05 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve - I believe this is the car Stephen is referring to:
78 930 with 88800 miles no oil leaks all paper work.runs excellent B and B exhaust,k-27.new clutch(1000) miles new brakes,rotors,BBS LM 17 in rims.22mm sway bars.H-4s,sony CD,etc.Email me or call for details.HECK of a bargin.$20000 FIRM Dan 2528090911 Fastjackracing@earthlink.net
This car has been for sale for a while (including an eBay auction or two). It looks pretty nice - although due for a repaint, and it has plaid cloth seats.
As an aside, my car (although a Euro model which I think addresses the fuel system concerns raised by Stephen), puts out 440 HP at the crank. The RUF car I mentioned is pretty close to that in HP, but maybe has a bit more useable power due to the 5 speed tranny. Even if you start with a 78 for 20K, I don't think you could get it to where my car is putting in another 20K. If you want to make the upgrades yourself, maybe you should look for an 86-88 Euro model. The Euro cars have a better fuel system that can handle more power and have a lower suspension (which should translate into better handling).
78 930 with 88800 miles no oil leaks all paper work.runs excellent B and B exhaust,k-27.new clutch(1000) miles new brakes,rotors,BBS LM 17 in rims.22mm sway bars.H-4s,sony CD,etc.Email me or call for details.HECK of a bargin.$20000 FIRM Dan 2528090911 Fastjackracing@earthlink.net
This car has been for sale for a while (including an eBay auction or two). It looks pretty nice - although due for a repaint, and it has plaid cloth seats.
As an aside, my car (although a Euro model which I think addresses the fuel system concerns raised by Stephen), puts out 440 HP at the crank. The RUF car I mentioned is pretty close to that in HP, but maybe has a bit more useable power due to the 5 speed tranny. Even if you start with a 78 for 20K, I don't think you could get it to where my car is putting in another 20K. If you want to make the upgrades yourself, maybe you should look for an 86-88 Euro model. The Euro cars have a better fuel system that can handle more power and have a lower suspension (which should translate into better handling).
02-05-2002, 03:46 PM
#12
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks ZCAT: I'm a little confused about the fuel systems here. I thought I read earlier that the 78-79 930's injectors were more favorable for high HP? Are the euro 86-88's fuel system different from US cars? I saw a really nice euro for sale last week on eBay for under 30K. Low miles and stock. I have heard that the most important issue in a grey market is proper docs. What constitutes proper docs? I had ruled these out for simplicity, but you offer a more interesting twist on my search...
Steve
Steve
02-05-2002, 04:23 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ROW fuel system is different than the system used on the U.S. cars - I presume this was due to emissions issues like everything else. You should check with Stephen from Imagine Auto (Porsche PhD) or Steve Weiner from Rennsport to be sure, but I belive the ROW fuel system is fine for the higher HP applications (I know I have no issues). Many people replace the stock fuel system with an ROW system on modified 930s.
As for "Grey Market" cars being an issue, I had no problem. If the car is currently registered in CA, you should be fine. You just want to be sure that during the PPI, the tech looks closely at what was done to bring the car to U.S. emissions standards. I am told there were some cars where the cat was placed in very poorly. As an example, the cat in our car was soldered between the headers and the turbo - not between the turbo and the muffler where it would be on a standard U.S. car. This did not cause any performance issues, but did require some work when we replaced the headers with GHL Headers as the cat was in the wrong spot.
As an aside, I prefer the ROW models - they are cars as Porsche intended them to be.
As for "Grey Market" cars being an issue, I had no problem. If the car is currently registered in CA, you should be fine. You just want to be sure that during the PPI, the tech looks closely at what was done to bring the car to U.S. emissions standards. I am told there were some cars where the cat was placed in very poorly. As an example, the cat in our car was soldered between the headers and the turbo - not between the turbo and the muffler where it would be on a standard U.S. car. This did not cause any performance issues, but did require some work when we replaced the headers with GHL Headers as the cat was in the wrong spot.
As an aside, I prefer the ROW models - they are cars as Porsche intended them to be.
02-05-2002, 04:34 PM
#14
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks again ZC. I called the fellow with the 78; hope to hear from him. Was this car by chance a petrol blue car? I seem to recall seeing a eBay listing this summer that matches the description. At that time, I think it was more expensive. The plaid interior scared me away, but now that I'm looking to buy, this is a minor issue that can be resolved.
I'll extend my search now to include euro's!
I'll extend my search now to include euro's!
02-05-2002, 04:46 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 1,276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep - that's the car. I think he started around 28K. You will definitely want a thorough PPI and leakdown/compression test on a car like that. A rebuild could be in the near future.