Igooz

One less Denver omelet and my car will feel like a euro car!

TT Surgeon

It's gotten much easier, my brother registered his 83 in Texas with little or no trouble.

Porsche 930

Whoa baby! All the Porsche Factory Manuals and Spec Books have the early US 3.3L 930's weighing less than the early Row 3.3's.

Gotta go out and play in the street with my light weight US '79 now,
Bye, Bye.

The Baron

Tony,

I'm not quite sure who you are, how old you are or why you are defensive about grey market cars.....but you need to re-read my four comments about THIS particular car then look at the decal that YOU posted.

Regarding my four points;

The seller contradicts himself several times
The seller misrepresents several things on the car
The seller has no idea what he is talking about
The workmanship that I am able to see in sellers own photos is horrible.

Regarding photo of the tin foil decal that you posted;

This is NOT a factory Porsche label, sticker, ID plate or whatever else you want to call it.

This is cheap hand-stamped foil sticker that every schlock gray market importer used back in the '80s. They supposed to be put in each car after completion of EPA/DOT conversion by the company doing the conversion. The problem was that anyone could get approved to do these "conversions" and federal oversight & regulation was an absolute joke in the beginning. Because the dollar was so strong against the German Mark in the '80s (no Euro until De.'95), there were hundreds of grey market "importers" bringing in every MB, Porsche, BMW and Ferrari that they could find. NOW.....the Europeans quickly picked up on this and started dumping roached, wrecked, stolen and just plain worn out pieces of **** on these gullible and/or greedy US "Importers". I have personally seen a gray market car that was spliced/created out of two separate cars that had been totaled.

There were so many of these importers that popped up around the country that the Feds couldn't possibly monitor them all and because of this, a lot of **** was sold to unwitting US buyers.

Those of us that are old enough and were around in the HeyDay of the "Gray market" craze in the '80s saw this too often. This does not mean that every gray market car is a turd but many are. This is one reason why most US dealers wouldn't even touch a gray market car when it came in for service work.

There was a well known shop in NoVa that was well known for selling these foil plates (that you posted) for $200 to anyone who self-imported a gray market car and wanted to quickly flush it through the system......I saw it tooooooo often.

The EPA/DOT conversion market has changed drastically in the past three decades and there are now less than ten (I think 6) certified importers left and the industry is now VERY regulated. This is down from +/- 150 supposed importers in the late '80s/early '90s !

Regarding your comment about "25 year exemption";

These cars might be exempt NOW but they were not exempt when they were brought into this country !

So, in conclusion, I don't know why you persist in defending "Gray market " cars unless you own one or unless you or a friend owns this particular Turbo. I don't care what you think about this car but I am telling you that this Turbo is a piece of **** and the seller is a liar. I also don't care what you think of me or whether you believe anthing that I've written.

I politely suggest that you park your sanctimonious attitude and condescending comments........you can learn a lot of valuable information from many knowledgeable people on this forum.

tonypeoni

#1 After 30 years any issues that may or may have not been present on a Gray Market 930 have been addressed.

#2 All of these cars a now exempt from the federalization process. That "tin foil" decal is a legal notice. This is present on more than a few Ferrari F40s.

#3 There are just as many cobbled US 930s as Gray Market 930s. Just as there are just as many nice Gray Market 930s as US 930s.

#4 A nice 930 is one that has been maintained, Gray Market or US car.

#5 We are 30 years on from all of the events that you describe, they have been address. Time erases .

cobalt

I have to agree with you on this one. I helped bring over 70 cars to the US in the 80's. I had the pleasure of searching for cars for perspective buyers and putting them together with the car. In the beginning there was a lot to chose from and prices were cheap especially with the exchange rate being so much in our favor. By mid 1985 it was a different market. Suddenly there was a lot of crap cobbled back together by the local gas station repair shop poorly painted and sold as original for top dollar to the unsuspecting US buyer.

I saw many cars I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole at car shows and club events and knowing the history on many of them I felt sorry for the buyer but the cheap price covered many sins.

I dealt with the compliance center here in jersey Joe Nasatsi of Lamborghini fame https://www.google.com/search?q=joe+...ml%3B200%3B151
I used to manufacture Magnesium castings for his cars. Especially the alfa Typo 33-3 that Alain De Cadinet claimed was the most significant car in racing history Joe was one of the best and got the grey market going but there were many shops especially in the NYC area that did hatchet jobs on everything and it was more graft than compliance work. They would do the bare minimum at best and usually they would change the headlights out to US sealed beams and sugar scopes then sell the H4's for top dollar. If they have the compliance paperwork knowing which shop did the work sometimes says a lot.

Part of the reason for the 930's being light for ROW is they did not have the crash bar supports in the doors. that added about as much as a Cat and they also had a CIS fuel head with higher flow rate which allowed you to extract more power. Interestingly the hatchet shops remedy for crash bars was adding a carbon steel bar weighing about 30 pounds in each door which did very little and weighed more than the US spec doors after they were done.

On the other hand I agree with Tony. Today a 930 US or ROW is a car to cherish and with any 25+ year old car it is buyer beware no matter were it was originally sold.

idart930

U.S. '76 to '79's have the same fuel head.

I have a Euro ’75 and U.S. ’79 and I really think it just depends on the car. Some were converted with Rube Goldberg mods but others imported back in the day, or those imported more recently with the 25-year exemption, are well sorted cars. I think a real disadvantage of Euro cars is that the California market is a real nightmare and that takes a lot of resale potential out the Euro 930’s. When you actually read the California SMOG requirements, it appears to be impossible to license any grey market car without some sort of immaculate conception (or perhaps people just license the car out of state). Unless you have a 1967 or older car (Porsche), California requires extensive testing and modifications to “ALL” grey market cars regardless of if they have be legally imported to one of the “other” 49 States.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/master_fa...t_cars_faq.htm

"Makes you wonder how any RoW 930's could ever be licensed in the golden state and how in the world did any of the 1973 Carrera RS’s you see in California ever obtain plates?

tonypeoni

Gray Market/ US Market. Who cares. The condition of the car is what counts. Finding a nicely maintained car that has never been wrecked is what really matters. If it is a US car cool if its a Gray Market car cool.

tonypeoni

We need lobbyist in California... Magnus Walker are you listening lol

cobalt

Are you saying the ROW 930's had the same fuel head as the US spec cars? We had cut some bad fuel heads open a long time back and the ports were larger on the ROW vs US heads. Although I might be confusing this with the SC's I don't believe I am. Interesting my fathers old MB SL had a better fuel head with each port adjustable to regulate fuel independently to each cylinder if needed.

As much as NJ is what it is, I lived in La jolla for a while and as nice as it was it was full of crazy people with insane notions of reality. There are enough buyers in the NY metro area with gobs of money you can sell anything to. I am sure you can find a buyer someplace.

As Tony puts it condition is king and I am sure just like the crazy 80s many of what we are seeing are cars that have been made to look like they have no history and have had clips and other parts replaced never mind speedos. There are some very talented people out there and they do some very nice work that even the best experts would be hard pressed to prove is factory or not.

That is an entirely different scenario. As we used to say back in the 80's a bad Porsche is no better than VW bug. If it is clean and runs well proving the mileage and condition seems to be more important than anything else.

idart930

Yes, same fuel head (part #'s) for the Euro vs. U.S. (1976-1979). A lot of misnomer/swirl exists since the Euro 1980-1985's also had the older-style iron fuel head with more fuel capacity (in stock form) compared to the all world cayalyst versions used in 1986-1989.

Getting back to Baron's subject for this thread, another disadvantage for RoW 930's is often the lack of an original speedo/history. It does depend however, as I have the original 10/74 dated 300 KPH speedo for my '75 Turbo complete with a maintenance record when it was replaced with a 180mph version in the late 1980s. Original speedos are rare for RoW 930's in the U.S. as they seldom came with the cars after they were grey market converted with MPH speedos.

idart930

Magnus may be an exception to the rule as he somehow registered a '76 Euro with California plates.

Porsche 930

To clarify --

While the U.S./Euro 930's did have the same Fuel Distributer (fuel head) in 1976-1977, it was redesigned in 1978 to accommodate for the increased fuel flow requirements of the intercooled 3.3 motor.

This 1978 redesign is the "big cast iron 930 fuel head" that is often mentioned in increased power discussions. It was OEM on both the U.S. and Row 930's in 1978 and 1979 and continued OEM on the RoW 930's through 1989. Unlike the earlier US 3.3's and Row models, the 1986 to 1989 U.S. 930's used a different redesigned aluminum Fuel Distributer.
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pu911rsr

I thought were we talking speedo's here and some how it morphed into the US Vs grey market cars - this has been debated ad nauseum - I have no issues with Euro cars as long as they have complete documentation- many (most) don't. The euro cars tend to be used very hard and hung up wet- they are often daily drivers used year around. Most euro collectors when they want a really nice car come and shop in the states (think cali, AZ, etc.) many more gently used and low miles cars here. All of this is absurdly over generalized of course. My father in law brought in a grey market car - my advise at the time was to import a 3.0 Carrera and not a turbo- I think that advice served him well.
Phil