Brent 930

YUP, gotta split up the talk CIS vs. EFI turbos. For a bolt on CIS turbo with mods, the Hi-Flow for the money is the right choice. That is the short story, but it's the way to go.

DonE

Where've you been?

Brent 930

Read my other reply from last night.

graeme36s

You'll have to excuse me but I am technically quite ignorant. A few years back when we were building my race car the engine man went for a T3 (from memory). When runnning up in the workshop he actually managed to hydraulic the engine. Luckily no damage caused. We fitted an additional scavenge pump but ended up buying a modded K27S that did the job. I could never get a straight answer to what the problem was and gave up asking. I can't provide much more info as I was treated like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed a load of bu******. Why would you get this problem with a garrett and not with the KKK ?.
A second question if you had a twin turbo running K24's as standard what garretts would you fit, what would be the ups and downs of doing so ?.
thanks for your help, Graeme

Brent 930

Depending on the flow of your motor/ (and what compressor wheel you went with) will determine what hot side you should go with. Apparently a T3 housing was good enough for the hp. The center sections are a whole different ball game. The KKK's live long in a Porsche, the Garrett's unless modified won't. I will let the experts chime in to explain it, as well the TT question.

Porschefile

Garrett turbos live perfectly fine on Rx7's, and those put out the EGT's of a thermonuclear reactor (911 isn't even close)! Honestly, I see absolutely no reason that a Garrett turbo has some sort of deficiency that would reduce it's life span on a 911. I've heard this speculated a lot here, however I've never seen anyone give any actual proof of this. Garrett's turbochargers are the single most widely proven turbochargers in the world, production or race wise period. I think it's more likely a case of KKK's come on Porsches and they work well, so by default some Porsche owners assume they are the best. Sorry, not trying to come off like a jerk.

Generally speaking, T3 frame turbos are good up to about 600whp and then it's a good idea to step up to a T4 much after that. Don't get me wrong, there are some T3 frame turbos rated at power levels over 600whp, however with a T3 hotside that requires a ton of boost. Seems like with 911's much over 500whp and it's a good idea to step up to a T4 so you don't have to run too much boost to achieve the power.

special tool

your engine builder blamed the turbocharger quality, right?
Some of these guys....

Kevin

I think that one has to compare apple to apples.. Comparing a stock 7200 to a GT35 isn't a comparison. Comparing a Hyflow "S" to a GT35 on a CIS engine is closer to the truth. With the CIS engine the power band is shifted up the RPM curve with the 35..

The build quality of the T3 or GT series Garrett turbocharger is considered a light duty turbocharger. The K27's that are run on the 930 are the same turbocharger frame and construction that is run on a offshore marine vessel or industrial powerplant. Every K26, 27 and larger KKK unit utilizes 2 turbine side sealing rings.. The Garrett's have one.. Turbocharger for turbocharger the K27 is a stronger reinforced turbocharger. 360 degree thrust bearings are the norm, where as the Garrett's "hybrids" need extensive reinforcement to allow them to survive. You have K27-7200 original turbochargers placed in service on OEM applications on the 965 still working without failure. 16 years of service vs the average of which I see of 2 to 3 years for the Garrett when placed on the 930. If oiling isn't nailed down correctly oil is breaching the seals on startup. BTW, one can't rebuild the Ball bearing cartridge. If you knock it out a new one has to be purchased..

For a CIS engine the modern K27 HyFlow has a more efficient compressor wheel vs the Garrett GT series. On a CIS engine the Hyflow will spool quicker an build boost faster. The delay of the GT35 is 500 RPM's latter.

Porschefile

Says the man that sells KKK turbos. j/k Until someone decides to release some specs, flow charts, etc for the KKK stuff there's no real proof that any of the rest of us can use to substantiate claims like that so it's a moot point. Garrett's stuff has been used successfully, and on race-winning stuff for years and in nearly every form of motorsport. All the info, specs, flow charts, etc that you could want are out there so it's more than proven what they can do. I've seen little in the way of anything with KKK turbos, except a handful of old flow charts for K26's or smaller KKK stuff. Do they work? Of course, and from a longevity standpoint they sure seem to last a long time which is a major plus (at least in an OEM app.). Are they the best there is? IMO, that's doubtful compared to everything I have seen with Garrett's stuff and what little I've seen of the KKK/Borg Warner stuff. I don't want no marine/industrial turbos on my car, just the best plain and simple. I think it speaks volumes more than I can say that, outside of the Porsche community, very few if any (except OEM apps.) tend to use KKK stuff compared to the vast majority using Garrett or Garrett-based turbos (Precision, T-netics, HKS, etc).

Oh BTW, Honeywell (Garrett) the originator of the VNT turbos licensed Borg Warner to produce their new VTG turbos (including the 997tt turbos) using Honeywell's patent on the technology, though some 20 odd years later. Funny how even some of the most innovative "new" technology in gasoline turbochargers (as in the best BW has to offer), and on top of the line Porsches non the less, owe themselves to technology pioneered by Garrett 2 decades ago.

Kevin

Yeah.. As far as the Variable Vane technology, KKK built there own turbocharger, however in the court of laws the Patents held up in Garretts favor. 50 million dollars later KKK had to get a OEM to help pay for the development. Hence the 997TT... The design isn't close to the 20 year old VTN that was on the Chysler and Dodge Shelby. Please remember that turbocharger failed and Allied Signal did sell the Turbocharger division to Honeywell. That was a bad deal and Garrett never did get back to perfecting a Gasoline VTN..

I understand that you are a Garrett lover.. My 12 year old son gets to practive turbocharger 101 on TO4's.. I have had more Garrett parts in my hands than most people.. It's like asking a Porsche mechanic if he has ever rebuilt a small block Chevy engine.. Yeah, so what.. It is the very few, that can say and take a 20 year old turbocharger like the K27 and improve it to hang with latest offerings.

pole position

Very few if any use KKK's ? So how come the GM factory drag cars use them ? Maybe they need the "truth" from you ?

As far as the VTG technology, there is a difference in having the patent ,or making it work with torture OEM reliabilty in OEM gas powered (not diesel) applications . Porsche/KKK did exactly that, not some earlier disaster from a few years back by another company.

Porschefile

The VTG thing was just a joke. I fully realize the VTG turbos are a huge improvement over the old VNT stuff, I was just poking fun at you guys.

I'm not knockin' your stuff Kevin as, from what I've seen, it looks like you offer some pretty cool products. I'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree. I'm just the type that I don't believe anything until I see real, tangible proof.

Pole Position, I don't even know where to start. Don't get me wrong, they're out there. Heck, even a few import companies like Blitz offer turbo kits with KKK turbochargers, it's just not nearly as common to see KKK stuff as compared to Garrett. I did a quick google search and saw no mention of any GM drag cars running KKK turbos. As for Garrett? Did you know both the extremely successful Audi R8 and R10 LMP cars run Garrett turbos? Link Link Here's a small selection of Garrett's featured sponsor cars: Link There is such a huge number of competition-winning stuff out there using Garrett turbos, I honestly don't even know where to begin. As for OEM apps, there are tons of current and older OEM diesel/industrial apps of Garrett turbos. They're not exactly some cheapo quality, weak chinese knock-off stuff.

Regardless of any disagreement of opinion, the fact remains that in the Porsche community and my relatively short time in it, I have yet to see any actual evidence, back to back test, or real tangible proof that most of these modded stock turbos or other custom jobs somehow top state of the art stuff like the Garrett GT series. Similar performance? Maybe, I'm not saying it's impossible. With the advancements in technology over the past few decades it's certainly possible to implement some of this new tech on old-tech stuff. One observation I have (Kevin, I'm just speaking generally so this isn't aimed at you) is I've seen quite a few examples in this community where people claim to have such groundbreaking or state of the art stuff, never publish any real facts or proof, but since it's associated with Porsches there are always plenty of people to jump on the bandwagon. Kevin, I know you are completely the opposite! Believe me, I've browsed many of your threads (really enjoyed watching that 996 motor + Gt3 head engine build thread!) and realize you put quite a bit more tech and engineering into your products, so I apologize if it sounded like I was putting your stuff down as that was never my intention.

turbobrat930

For what its worth, I called and spoke to Jake today at Tial Sport.... Bad news, he advised that they are out of stock on these new SS exhaust housings and have no idea when thay might be back in. He didnt come right out and say it, but was reluctant to give me any more info....sounds like there could be a bigger problem then just a shipping thing, or waiting for the manufacture to make the parts. He also stated that they are re-evaluating pricing....what ever that meant.....
So, I guess its back to waiting.... I was hoping to have my car running for Rennsport III....but that might not be a possibility now....

Kevin

Thanks, Schnele... Sounds like you have a axe to grind over this.. You mentioned it in post 46.. And now again.. And you have never thought about emailing me personally about this?? And how many months have gone by since you installed the Garrett?

And based on all the changes that you did to you engine to accept to accept the custom hybrid Garrett.

A off the shelf HyFlow 2 turbocharger vs a Custom Hybrid??

As far as "cost" and your loss. I guess this is leading me to start selling my product directly to the public at reduced prices..

schnele

Kevin I e-mailed you.