Tom F

I also posted a similar note on the Pelican engine building forum, for those of you who watch that forum, too.

Has anyone done a squirter replacement? I have one valve that's stuck open (i.e., air goes both ways through it, and the valve squirts a stream, instead of the atomized mist that I see out of the other five "healthy" valves). The engine is a 3.0 Turbo, apart. The valves are 1.5 mm. I don't think that a leak through a 1.5 mm orifice would make a significant difference in oil pressure, but I also don't like the idea of letting it go.

Can anyone alert me to the perils/pleasures of this task? I have seen instructions from the 993 manual posted on Pelican, but it seems to me that the manual leaves out the details that someone would learn from experience. For instance, can I expect to work the valve out by grinding away the three places where the case is peened over, heating the case to melt the adhesive, and pulling the valve out with a wire hook? What works best to peen the case over to secure the new valve? Does the failure of one valve mean that I should suspect the others, and change all six of them?

Alternatively, anyone know a trick for getting the valve to work again? I have tried every solvent in the garage, except gasket remover, because I'm afraid the that the gasket remover might also remove the adhesive that holds the valve in place.

Thanks in advance.

Tom

A930Rocket

I wish I had an answer, but your are past my abilities right now.....

Good luck and let us know what you find out and do.

Jim

m42racer

I'll take a crack at this one. What I know is this. Maybe some of the "engine builders" on here will chime in and correct anything I say that is not correct.

The Valves have 2 OD dimensions. The main OD is the same size as the bore its in. The 2nd dimension is a couple of thousands bigger than the bore its in. The Bore is drilled and reamed from the Main saddle side. It is first reamed to the smaller size, then the top part9 the part nearest the bearing) is reamed to the Valve size. The Piston side is peened over as a safety to ensure the valve does not fall thro. The valves go in from the bearing side and should be removed from the same side. To remove, take a small straight punch and carefully drive the valve back into the bearing saddle. There should be no glue, but if there is, don't worry about it. If you want to, you could use some Locktite ( little)when reinstalling the new valve. As long as the peened over parts are not removed, the valve will not come out. The valve cannot fall out the backside as the Bearing shell will hold it.

This job should take a few minutes only. The interference between the case and the valve should be very small. Probably no more than 0.002". To be sure, after removing the old valve, measure the new valve OD with a Micrometer, and the bore with a Pin gauge. If you don't have these tools, I suppose you have to go with it and hope the 2 valves are the same OD size.

Hope this helps.

PorschePhD

You are correct sir. Sorry I am late to the thread. I have been replacing headers in the front of my 7 year old house...Winter is coming .yuck..

On the squirters it is critical not to over ream them. There are oversized versions available, but the trick is to do them right the first time. Also you might consider upgrading to the 993 squirters

Tom F

To those who replied, thank you for your input.

I guess that I should have been a little more specific in my original post. I am going to follow the directions in the 993 manual: drill out the top of the valve with a 5 mm bit and use a 5 mm tap to pull out the remainder, after heating the area to melt the adhesive. Are there any tricks to getting the old valve out and leaving the bore in the crankcase clean? Is the drilling critical enough that I should use a miller (I have access to one)? Also, is there any advantage to using the Loctite 640 (don't have any) over the Loctite 270 (have some)?

Tom F

Here's what I learned. The drill and 5 mm tap method works, but you have to carefully relieve the factory peening before you pull out the old splash valve, and you have to heat the adhesive. The bore comes out perfectly clean. It's better to make a little puller with a sleeve to sit around the squirter and a machine screw to actually pull out the squirter. This way, there's no risk of breaking off a tap in a bad spot. It's also good to make a drift from soft aluminum to tap the new splash valve in place. They don't go down far enough into the hole without a little persuasion, and the aluminum of the splash valve is too soft to hit with anything except soft aluminum or, maybe, plastic. The machine shop that I use made a nice tool for this that just goes into the bore, and which has a tip that fits into the top of the splash valve. Loctite 640 works great for this.

Also, the reason I had a plugged splash valve is that case sealer got into it. It seems that the last guy to assemble this motor put sealant on the faces of the bearing supports as well as on the perimeter of the case. Oh well, at least the case didn't leak.

sand_man

Funny you should mention that, Tom. In Wyane Dempsey's 911 Engine Building book, he instructs to use the case sealer on those same surfaces...outside case perimeter as well as the internal bearing supports. What say the 930 Pros? Stephen? Keven? Geoffrey?

sand_man

BUMP...sand_man wants to know what the 930 professional engine building consensus is on applying case sealant to the inner bearing supports.

PorschePhD

I try stay away from the bearing supports. The issue becomes clogging the splash valves as indicated. If one has to do it I highly suggest some common sense here. One little dot and spread it out VERY thin. Leave a space around the bearing or splash valve and only do one side. When the case halves go together it squirt out between the halves so the amount you place down will be critical.

m42racer

Seems to me it would be as simple as this.

I don't think it has anything to do with clogging the Valves. You could do that by using too much glue around the outside and the excess migrating into the oil.

I think a little logic used here will give the correct answer.

If the case was assembled to measure the main line bore dry, then any final assembly should be done the same. In this case, pun not intended, the Main bearing "Caps" are measured dry and should be assembled dry. They pose no leak issue, so to use any glue here should be avoided at all costs.

" In Wyane Dempsey's 911 Engine Building book, he instructs to use the case sealer on those same surfaces...outside case perimeter as well as the internal bearing supports."

I'd love to hear his reasons. I wonder if he has thought this all the way through?

PorschePhD

Sorry I have to respectfully disagree. Better ask Harvey about this. It is a problem in this area. Idiots lay too much around the supports and it does get into the oil passage in the through case bolts. It clogs the squirter and then the problems occur. You are correct that excessive glue on the outer halves will pose the same issue, just not as much. It has farther to pass to create an issue. To much or any glue for that matter that gets in the case through bolts holes will drop to the squirters in a heartbeat. In fact it will round and drop in the hole the minute the case is put together. Bottom line is common sense is the answer here.

Kevin

Over the years I have seen it done both ways. I use another approach.. The through bolts that we know have oil galleys through them I use very small amounts of sealer on the left case half. What we don't want is the excess ozing into the gallery and getting dislodged, and plugging a squiter..

Caution and common sense is in order..


Edit, Stephen you type faster..

PorschePhD

LOL,slow poke. And I have nubs!

Lets not forget what the later motors have and that could be retrofitted to the earlier cases as well. Inner O'rings!

m42racer

I suppose its obvious about putting glue around the valve. Using glue should always be done with care.

I think you missed my point. It was not that the glue wouldn't clogg the valve, but that glue should not be used in this area because of the dimensional issue.

Speaks to the "assembler" verses "builder" issue here, I think. Understanding the whole concept rather than just thinking about leaks.

PorschePhD

Sorry, I did miss it. It wasn't clear.

FWIW per the manuals and measurements from Porsche the early cases are to be glued on the supports. People need to look and have all the manuals. For example 640 should be used on the squirters when inserted. If followed along with the nap roller they should be ok, but never doing it before might yield to much glue. Common sense again will go far.

The 930 manual will not explain the whole procedure since it is only a supplement to all of the books. Bottom line is we have talked about assembling and building a motor. If one wants to really do it right, follow all the measurements and record and correct any issue. That means a bigger job since you will end up assembling the case several times to ensure everything is correct. Small price to pay for a proper build.

I would always recommend for these guys to search for the manuals and follow the procedures. While it doesn’t show some of the things we learn through the years it will help them follow a good road map.