cobalt

People do crazy things and I could never understand spending double or more over sticker for a car that will only depreciate over time. Crazier things have happened. That is one mean looking car. I will wait a couple of years and pick up a low mileage one for $70-$80k.

Sameer

But I still have to admit it's a lovely car, very old school..

Les Quam

I was at Barrett Jackson this January when one sold for 305K plus commision. I know a dealer who recently paid 215K for one and now is stuck with it because the Ford GT has at least 14 confirmed recalls including all control arms both upper and lower as well as leaking gas tanks and leaking rear main seals because the engine builder who is not Ford installed a crank with the wrong tolerances and the oil leaks like the Exxon Valdez.

Ford does not build this car generally speaking. They hired Steve Saleen to build the car because Ford was impressed with the Saleen S-7. Unfortunately unknown to Ford at the time Saleen subbed most of the S-7 out to a British firm who built most of the car. Saleen builds a rolling chassis and sends it to a Ford plant where a Jack Roush built Ford engine is inserted in the car. Ford originally wanted Saleen to install the Roush engine but the Ford unions complained that a Ford factory must somewhere be involved in the manufacture of the car to be called a Ford. So the Roush engine is installed in the Saleen built chassis at a Ford plant.

The quality control problems are so bad with the 2005 Ford GT that Saleen fired his top guys at his Michigan plant and replaced them. One of the reasons there are so many problems is because only one prototype was built and only three test mules. Then many of the parts used on the production cars were not even tested on the mules but used for the first time at the production level.

One such part was the new never before tested in the USA "squishy metal" control arms which prompty failed on the production car. I am not making this up that is the actual name for the Japanese manufacturing process that Ford attempted to duplicate on the Ford GT.

At the dealer level Ford is providing ZERO tech support for all these recall repair issues and leaving relatively untrained Ford techs to figure out how to install a supersleeve designed for truck engines into the rear mainseals of a 500 HP supercharged race motor to stop the leak.

My neighbor is a Ford GT owner and took me for an extended ride in his Ford GT. The car is too quiet and feels no faster than my GT 2 or my Viper. In fact we were going to race except the car has been in the shop since he bought it for the various recalls. Ford now offers a louder exhaust over the counter because even they admit the car is too quiet.

Two days after riding in my neighbors Ford GT which were selling for around 250K to 300K then I bought my Porsche CGT figuring it was a steal compared to the Ford GT. I was that disappointed with the Ford GT

These cars can be bought for 20K right now over MSRP and are dropping like an anchor.

What Bill Ford did to the first 500 owners of Ford GTs is the same as what the hill people did to Ned Beatty in the Burt Reynolds Deliverance movie. "hey you got a real pretty mouth" "Squeal like a pig for me"

I am going to eventually buy a Ford GT because I am a huge Ford nut and Ford collector and it will make a nice book end next to my Boss 429 which also was a Ford practical design failure. But geeeeez did they screw up these early Ford GT cars.

2006 Ford GT at below MSRP is the way to go on this Ford GT deal IMHO. The car is still probably the best looking car out there.

SoFast

Well, so far so good. My brother has not had one issue! I would have to admit, the car is super quiet. But, the car is very fast. You dont get the real feel like you do in a P-Car. The car is awesome upclose and Photos do not do it justice. It is super wide and sticks to the pavement like glue. The failures certainly hurt Ford.

Les Quam

Your brother may have one built after the first 500. Just look at the VIN I think they are sequential. So far it was the early ones having most of the problems.

It would be fantastic if Ford caught this early and resolved them early in the build run. I am a Ford fan and want this car to be a success. But I am puzzled by the exhaust note? My 2003 SVT cobra is the same way much too quiet. The previous generation SVT Cobra had an incredible exhaust note just perfect as does the 2001 Bullitt. What were they thinking that the owners would complain their high performance cars were too loud? LOL

I can't remember a time in automotive history when owners complained about their muscle cars being too loud?

centerpunch

Those Ford GT recalls are really old news (old, as in 2004), and considering the car was essentially a "from-scratch" design, there have been very few problems. Ford had sold less than 200 cars when they discovered a crack in the suspension arm of one of the high mile development cars, and they reacted exactly like you would want them to. The part used a new type of pressure casting (and are made by Brembo, I believe), and since the flaws (porosity) can only be discovered by x-ray, they stopped shipping the cars, ordered the dealers to stop selling the cars, and have replaced all eight suspension arms on every car. There were only a few cars with the crankshaft finish problem. The other items were insignificant.

You are right, the car is very quiet. But I like it that way, and it's always easier to make a car louder! (Borla is making an exhaust for the car, that's probably the optional exhaust Ford will be selling).

I have driven both, and no question, the CGT is much more car. But although it is three times the price, it is not three times the car.

You say "Ford GT prices are $20K over sticker and dropping like an anchor" like that's a bad thing. Anyone who did any research would have known that in the volume they are planning (3000 to 4500), the high premiums over sticker price wouldn't last long. See http://www.FordGTprices.com for more background.

What's more surprising is that the CGT, built in much more limited numbers, was almost instantly at sticker, and is arguably being discounted now, even though the production plan has been dropped 17% (and may even drop further, according to some).

Here's the view out from a CGT to a FGT.
.

SoFast

The CGT is a great car. But what my brother was told, the engine in the Ford GT is detuned, and can easily produce a bunch more ponies, thus eliminating the HP gap the CGT has over the Ford. But I have to admit, haven been in both the CGT and Ford, they are totally different experiences. The CGT is really defined and european. Whereas the Ford gives you a sense of a Lemans race car. Hopefully Borla can make the Ford sound decent. But nothing can beat the sound of the CGT V10. Now that is music. Both cars are amazing and can sit in my garage any day.

Les Quam

centerpunch,

It is probably impossible to determine whose information is correct yours or mine. But it's my understanding that the control arms broke on a production car not a prototype. I was told this by the owner of a Ford dealership as well as the service manager. I have also seen this in print. I have read that the new squishy metal control arms were not used on the test mules of which either 3 or 15 were built depending on the source. The owner of the Ford dealership who also owns an early Ford GT indicated recently that the recalls were up to 31. I can only confirm 14 so that's the number I use. These are recalls on 2005 cars as well as the few 2004 cars built.

It seems to me at a minimum of 14 recalls is a lot for any car. I have personally witnessed with my own eyes a car built after your 200 production number leaking at the main seal and in need of a supersleeve. Which is not really what it needs. It needs a new crank not a larger gasket according to my friend the Ford service manager. Fords quick fix the supersleeve is a band aid at best.

The first three Ford GTs that arrived here in Vegas went to the owners of the dealerships and all three have leaking rear main seals and all three needed new control arms. I believe but am not certain that all three were over the 200 car build mark?

We talk about replacing control arms like its simple? Who sets the camber ,castor and bump steer on these 200 MPH cars after they are replaced the poorly trained Ford tech getting no help or supervsion from Ford?

There have been 1100 Ford GTs built so far and only about 350 sold the rest are sitting somewhere. Prices are coming down in my opinion hard. And that is like you say a good thing not a bad thing. Except for those who paid huge premiums over MSRP.

And you are quite right the only car dropping in value as fast as the Ford GT is the Porsche GT. Porsche flooded the NA market in 2005 to beat the 2006 new airbag restrictions and destroyed the value, and that was a good thing from a consumer point of view. No way for me to logically justify buying a new CGT.

Like I said I am a huge Ford fan and want a 2006 Ford GT in the future. The fit and finish was excellent, but I wish the car had been sorted out better before it went to market. I also wish Ford had built it in house like a viper instead of sending it to Saleen. And why didn't Fords SVT engine builders build the motor why did Ford send them to Roush. Since when can't SVT build a bullet proof engine?

centerpunch

Well, I agree with you. I'm going to get a 2006 also. But not because I think there's anything wrong with the 2005's.

There has been only one recall for the Ford GT: The suspension problem.

283 Ford GTs had been built when the recall was issued in December 2004, http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/ford/gt/recalls/ but only a few more than 100 had been sold to retail customers.

I was wrong about Brembo, here is an AutoWeek article that talks about the suspension recall in detail: http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101849 The article says that Porsche uses the same technology for some of their suspension parts (but probably from a different supplier).

The other problems (small other than the few cars with the bad crankshaft finish) were not recalls, just TSBs. Here's info on some, there may be a few more: http://www.blueovalnews.com/2005/adv...elt19feb05.htm and http://www.blueovalnews.com/2005/adv...sb.05jan05.htm

Wow, "incorrect adjustment of the self-tensioning hose clamps," and "a rattle from the upper steering column, due to the routing of a wiring harness. To correct the problem, Ford will reroute the wiring harness," and "Ford will instruct dealers to inspect the entire length of both driver and passenger seat belts for any blemishes, marks or imperfections."

These are the kind of little things that all manufacturers cope with every day, even on proven designs.

In my experience talking to dealers about the Ford GT, any Autoweek subscriber knows ten times as much about the car as everyone at the dealership put together.

And in fact, the only reason hundreds of Ford GTs are sitting in dealerships around the country is that many dealers are trying to get $250K for the cars, which was the market price 6 months ago, but is $70K above the market price today. Now that many dealers are realizing the market prices are dropping (duh! when supply continues to rise, what happens? You don't have to be Milton Friedman to predict this future!), there will be a frenzy to sell many of the 2005's before the 2006's come out.

The people who paid big premiums over MSRP for a car with a planned production run of 3000-4500 screwed themselves, nobody did it to them.....

Les Quam

According to your site at least 7 TSBs by February of this year. However since then the dealers have been instructed to replace ALL the control arms at all four corners. I saw it with my own eyes and spoke to the service manager who had the instructions from Ford in his hand as well as the rear main seal order. Initailly it was just the fronts that Ford discussed replacing they then required the dealers to replace them all. At least on the Ford GT I was standing next too and looking at in the service area of the dealership with the service manager standing next to me reading from the Ford correspondence.

I have no idea how accurate or stale your web site information is. That blue oval site has no more information than any other media source IMHO. But this dealership reluctantly replaced all four control arms and was in the process of disassembling the rear of the car to get at the rear main seal. The service manager who happens to also race and build stock cars in his spare time was talking about how labor intensive it was going to be to repair the main seal.

I imagine Ford is doing their best at damage control and spin on this story, it is after all their flagship and centerpiece of their centenial celebration. But as I said it would be difficult to argue my information is any more accurate than anyone else's information. But when the owner of a Ford dealership and Ford GT tells me his GT has been in his shop for over a month getting all the TSBs or recalls or glitches or whatever they are described as resolved that tells me everything I need to know about the 2005 Ford GT.

Lets try not to forget Ford is going to build 3000 of these cars. 350 have been sold and driven. Who knows what the future holds with this car and build quality? Who knows what else is waiting to fail??

After all , Saleen builds them not Ford. Kind of like the new Shelby GT 500. Shelby isn't modifying them at his factory they just stuck his name on the car.

38D

The Cayenne has had just as many recalls and TSBs

centerpunch

Looking at the recall and Autoweek links I posted, it looks like the Ford GT recall was always for all eight control arms. It says they called customers in December 2004, and sent letters to the (approximately 111) owners in January.

And again, look at the TSB's, other than the crank they are tiny, tiny, tiny issues. "Blemishes on the seatbelts," oh, no!

I'm sure the dealers who had cars in stock are VERY pissed, because it did take several months for the new suspension arms to be designed and manufactured and distributed and installed, and in the meantime the value of their in-stock Ford GT went from $250K to $180K. (I'd be pissed, too!)

Ford has been paying the floorplanning interest on the cars until this month. Now that dealers are paying the interest on the cars, and many of the cars are at small dealerships, watch the prices rocket to MSRP before the 2006's come out! (Again, that's very predictable on a car made in these volumes, and it's good news, not bad news!)

Again, I think for sticker (or a bit above) the car is great, and I'm getting one. (Blue, no stripes, no options, please).

* * * * *

And 38D, as to the Cayenne having recalls and TSBs, you're kidding, right? Recalls on a Porsche? I've never heard of such a thing! Porsche makes mistakes? Blasphemy! You must be kidding, right?

Oh. Or are you talking about these Cayenne recalls and TSBs:
(from http://www.alldata.com/TSB/50/03506755.html )

General Recalls
TSB Number & Issue Date TSB Title
34/03 OCT 03 Campaign - Console Selector Lever Screw Replacement
71/03 OCT 03 Campaign - Seat Edge Trim Cap Replacement
81/03 OCT 03 Campaign - A/C Regulator Assembly Replacement

Service Bulletins (partial list, there were 66 total)
TSB Number & Issue Date TSB Title
33/04 NOV 04 A/T - Hard Cold Shifting
925/04 OCT 04 Lighting - Headlamp Shaking While Driving
414/04 OCT 04 Porsche Stability Management - Diagnosis/Repair
58/04 OCT 04 Body - Front Door Window Wind Noise
98/04 OCT 04 Electrical - Multiple Malfunctions
51/04 SEP 04 Body - Multiple Malfunctions of The Locking System
210/04 AUG 04 Engine Controls - 'Kickdown' Adaptation Faulty
28/04 JUL 04 Engine Controls - Driveability Problems Advisory
45/04 JUN 04 Brakes (Rear Axle) - Squeaking Noise
61/04 JUN 04 Steering - Steering Wheel Grinding Noise
41/04 MAR 04 Steering Rattling Noise in Footwell Area
17/03 FEB 04 Engine - Camshaft Housing Screw Replacement
46/03 FEB 04 Engine - Timing Cover Bolt Replacement
917/03 JAN 04 Lighting - Headlamps Misting Up On The Inside
82/03 DEC 03 A/C - Erratic/Inoperative Auxiliary Heater Operation
912/03 NOV 03 Audio System - Sporadic Sound Failure
45/03 OCT 03 Power Steering - Component Replacement
93/03 SEP 03 Keyless Entry System - Multiple Malfunctions
97/03 JUL 03 Washers/Wipers - Rear Washer Nozzle Drips/Leaks
95/03 JUN 03 Antitheft/Keyless Entry - Remote Inoperative
41/03 FEB 03 Air Suspension - Fault Code 0003/Warning Lamp ON
92/02 FEB 03 Navigation System - Destination Input Not Possible
.
.

38D

Exactly. I wouldn't knock Ford too hard 'cause every new model has issues. Granted the control arm issue is a little worse than most, but the GT TSBs looks about the same as early Cayenne's had. In fact, the list of Cayenne TSBs doesn't even look like all of them. There were 3 safety related ones: a wiring harness issue that could cause a fire, a transfer case issue and a rear slet belt issue.

Les Quam

Ford sent out letters telling the owners of the first 448 cars "to not drive the car under any circumstances" because of the control arms. According to Automotive news and Car and Driver magazine.

I am no expert on automotive history but I can't remember a do not drive order on too many cars before this one?

My first Cayenne S was 58K and I could drive it to the service department for the recalls, all 6569 of them. LOL

Call me super fussy but for 150K I would be very unhappy with all the quality control issues with the early cars.

I don't know why we are blaming Ford for anything? All Ford does is install a Roush engine into a Saleen built chassis at the Ford Wixom plant and slap a Ford emblem on the car? What did Ford have to do with all these problems?

centerpunch

Ok, I'm beating a dead horse here, but (this is direct from the Car and Driver article):

At the point the first cracked A-arm was discovered last December, only 448 GTs had been produced, according to Automotive News. Of those, 289 had been shipped to dealers and just 106 had reached owners' hands.

There was not a single failure of a suspension arm in a customer car, Ford was just being (appropriately) overprotective of its customers.

Are you as fussy about Porsches? (You'd think even Porsche could figure out how to ship the car with the right wheels installed, right?)

Here's a partial list of 911 Turbo problems, for (more) reference:
from http://www.alldata.com/TSB/50/01505643.html

1/03 MAR 03 Wheels - Incorrect Wheels Factory Installed
1/03 MAR 03 Body - Tilting/Sliding Roof Noises
5/02 FEB 03 A/T - Grinding/Rattling Noise on Acceleration
1/02 AUG 02 Body - Clicking/Grating Noises From Door Lock Area
2/02 JUL 02 Brakes - Brake Disc Corrosion
1/02 JUL 02 Interior - R/H Side Instrument Panel Clicking Noises
1/02 JUN 02 M/T - Clutch Release Bearing Guide Tube Bolt Update
1/02 JUN 02 M/T - Clutch Throw-Out Bearing Guide Screw Replacement
1/02 MAY 02 Seat (Front) - Wiring Harness Damage
4/01 OCT 01 Sunroof - Creaking Noises
2/01 SEP 01 Seat Frame - Clicking Noises
7/01 SEP 01 Spark Plugs - Fouling/Wet/Starting Problems
2/01 AUG 01 Interior - Noises in the Rear Seat Well
3/01 MAR 01 Fuel System - Revised Return Line Connection
3/01 MAR 01 Fuel System - Return Line Connection Revised
2/00 OCT 00 Turbo Pressure Hose - Power Loss/Slow Acceleration
2/00 SEP 00 Stabilizer Bar - Front and Rear Loose/Rattles
3/00 AUG 00 Suspension - Clicking or Grating Noises When Steering
4/00 JUL 00 Wiper Arm - Comes Loose Over Time
3/00 JUL 00 Engine - Lack of Oil Pressure on Start Up
2/00 JUL 00 Seat Frame - Backrest Broken/Separating