oscarfors

I need my right-side rear seat, but I would like a 5-point harness and a race/sports type driver seat.

Since I need to reatin one of the two rear seats, I can't use either a full/half cage or a harness bar.

--> Has anyone built an alternative way to mount a harness on the driver side only? A cage without the side-to-side bar... or a smaller structure to bolt down behind the driver seat?

I'm not looking for the structural improvements of a cage other than the ability to mount a harness. I will still keep the stock 3-point seat belt for daily driving.

Appreciate your input

redridge

try this link... maybe you can see something that will fit your needs.

Maybe a guide bar will work.

http://www.stableenergies.com/Harness-Bars/products/42/

KaiB

Better minds than mine will probably tell you that you don't want a harness in a car without a proper roll bar or cage.

In a roll over situation, the harness will keep you vertical - the rest can be left open for the imagination.

5-points are so very Y2K these days also.

JCP911S

IMHO a "Mix and Match" assembly of safety equipment is like putting your life on Black, and spinning the wheel.

That said, a full containment seat, 5-points, and a HANS device will definitely give you more safety than nothing, and a harness bar will at least position your belts properly, but gives no protection in a serious side impact or rollover, but still, it's better than nothing.

It's risk management either way, but in my world, I feel safer on the race track than I do on the road.

JCP911S

Sorry, missed the elephant on the room here.

Do not try to mount 5-points without at least a harness bar.

oscarfors

I'm considering this setup for DE track days; my alternative is stock seat and 3-point seatbelt, which IMO can't be a better choise than a 4 or 5 point harness (provided proper mounting).

Yes, I acknowledge a full roll-bar is a safer choise.

While definitely important and certainly a concern, safety isn't my prime driver for this change - comfort is. Again - the original setup isn't better at anyting.

I'm leaning towards a standard bar that is mounted between the seat belt mounts on the b-pillar and can be easily removed after usage. I'm also looking for a "2-piece" sport seat with adjustable back where I can use the standard seat belt.

Thanks for your input!

JCP911S

First, what is your level?

If you are a novice doing a few DE a year, frankly, as an Instructor, I'm more comfortable with factory 3-Points, than some hodgepodge of ill-fitting crap.

But if you are moving on, let me warn you, ultimately, you'll need a dedicated track car.

IMHO, "dual use" Track/Street cars end up as an expensive exercise at building a lousy track car that is also a lousy street car.

Ed Hughes

Sounds like the exact opposite of safety. Do it correctly.

JCP911S

Imagine what can happen to you with full 5-points in a stock seat, with no side containment in a hard side collision.

HINT:

The belts don't move... your body moves... your neck doesn't move.

Do the math.

oscarfors

All good points. Thanks for your input.

Did the shocks (to Bilstein Sports), Turbo tie rods, brake lines and a Rennline strut bar this weekend. Wow, what a difference. New tires in the garage awaiting the 9-inch rear wheels (to 9-7 setup).

My car has 138k on it; the front bogi shock inserts i replaced was manufactured in Sept of 2002; so they have likely been on the car for about 10 years. They where both completely shot. Not just bad - when I compressed them by hand there was very little resistance and oil squirted from the bottom. This happened to both of them... before this I had removed about a cup of oil from the struts.

Needless to say, car handles very different now :-)

Charles Freeborn

Check your club rules too. I seem to recall PCA will not allow 4 pt at their events.

JCP911S

We don't allow 4-points

But "club rules" are very tricky, as dictating specific safety equipment can open you to litigation if somebody gets hurt... we've gone around in circles on this for decades.

We try as much as possible to "encourage" and educate DE students to equip their cars with full safety equipment, but there is just a limit to what you can do.

We actually tried to establish a rule that if you use DOT-R track tires you need full safety equipment, but this couldn't stick.

"Dual use" street/track cars simply present alot of problems, as some of the issues are mutually exclusive.

For example, while a full cage is great for the track, driving a car with a full cage on the street without a helmet can actually be more dangerous, as your head can hit the cage in a relatively minor accident and cause a relatively major head injury.

As I say, for a novice driver looking to do 2-3 DE a year, stick with stock equipment. If you get serious about this as a hobby, be prepared to equip your car with full safety equipment.

Anything in-between is potentially dangerous in my opinion.

But so is riding a motorcycle or skiing.

oscarfors

I do a few track days/year and have been using my 2008 997 Turbo completely stock. Now I'm preparing my -87 for a dual use since i've undersood that relatively minor changes to it can increase the joy on the track, namely turbo tie rods, suspension, wheels/tires, strut brace etc.

I get the point of nothing at all or full monty (stock or full track car), but are you saying that incremental modifications in the safety space are all negative up to a full track configuration, where it becomes safer in one big increment?

While I certainly have no real experience or knowlede to say this is wrong, it just seem counter intuitive to me.

You mention that skiing can also be dangerous; I was a ski instructor and heli-ski guide for many years. Whearing a helmet while skiing is one great increment towards safery. Adding a back-plate another. Kneepads a third. Every increment improves safety, helmet being the most important (just like in a car).

To the point: Are you saying that adding a vertical harness bar, a 4-point harness and a bucket seat is less safe on the track - all other things the same - than stock seat and stock 3-point seat belt? Note that this is not for any kind of race - still talking about intermediate DE run groups.

KaiB

Yes!

Spend some time searching (yes, I know the search function sucks) over in the Racing/DE forum; do a little research on this topic rather than take the advice of folks here (although at least one is a VERY experienced racer).

I'd advise that you don't post over there, as answers will come from all kinds of people, but a solid search should yield information from real experts regarding the subject.

Cheers, and have fun!

Ed Hughes

As noted, I think 4pts are illegal. Certainly one of the most dangerous setups. Without the proper angle of belt to your shoulders, through the seat at the proper height, your shoulders would be the "top of an unstable" harness pyramid.

Stock setups went through many years of safety analysis. There are defined methods of track seat/harness safety too. Not having the proper geometry and number of belts is a big iffy situation.