Purchasing advice, 911SC or Carrera 3.0L
#1
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Purchasing advice, 911SC or Carrera 3.0L
I am new to the forum and would like some input on my first foray into the 911 world. Last time I drove an air cooled rear engine was when I was a much younger man, and drove the "other" air cooled VW (fastback) while in grad school. I am considering a 911SC 1982 model well maintained and which drives strong. It has over 130K miles. I am also looking at 911 3.0L carrera 1984, which has lower mileage 79K, but has been garaged for a few years, and is now being brought to condition by the dealer who has put this up for sale.
Which one should I consider? Is 130K in a SC considered having too many miles? I intend to maintain this well and want to enjoy driving the 911SC (I test drove it and loved the way it drove), and not planning upgrades, souping up HP, or such things. Any advise will be greatly appreciated. I am not a rich guy by any means, hence want to be careful with this purchase and not be burdened with a "project" car.
I want to thank this forum for all the useful information I was able to find and learn in the pursuit of owning a Porsche 911. Thanks!
Which one should I consider? Is 130K in a SC considered having too many miles? I intend to maintain this well and want to enjoy driving the 911SC (I test drove it and loved the way it drove), and not planning upgrades, souping up HP, or such things. Any advise will be greatly appreciated. I am not a rich guy by any means, hence want to be careful with this purchase and not be burdened with a "project" car.
I want to thank this forum for all the useful information I was able to find and learn in the pursuit of owning a Porsche 911. Thanks!
#2
Three Wheelin'
You should drive both of them and many more to see which you like better. These are 30+ year old cars, so some drive tight, others drive loose. It all depends on how the car was cared for throughout the years. My 85 Carrera and 80 SC were in excellent shape as the suspensions were gone through and both drove tight. The SC felt more nimble and light, while the Carrera was a little heavier and subdued.
#3
Good advice above...is this the '84 limited build 3.0 SC Carrera variant?
Unique/limited in the Porsche world is worth something.
I'd buy the vehicle that was the better car giving the unique aspect some weight.
Unique/limited in the Porsche world is worth something.
I'd buy the vehicle that was the better car giving the unique aspect some weight.
#5
There were some factory prepared comp cars with 3.0 motors made in '84....I was wondering if he was speaking of these.
Since they only made 20 of them and they are extremely dear it was just a 'hope'.
Since they only made 20 of them and they are extremely dear it was just a 'hope'.
Last edited by Reiver; 10-21-2013 at 12:11 AM.
#7
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Thanks for your input all. I will definitely check out the 1984 status. I simply thought this was the model after the SC.
So, is the 1982 SC's mileage is not an issue as long as the car runs good and checks out?
So, is the 1982 SC's mileage is not an issue as long as the car runs good and checks out?
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#9
Carrera 3.0's have more collectability appeal (worth) than the avg. SC due to smaller numbers and slightly unique.
However, I'd buy the better car with history etc....and check out the PPI' sticky.
However, I'd buy the better car with history etc....and check out the PPI' sticky.
#10
Team Owner
i have a 3.0 with 250,000km on it and absolutely no issues.
All things being equal however take the Carrera with the motronic and 3.2 litre engine. I imagine it will be at a higher procepoint. if it is too high for you the SC will be fine as long as it checks out .
PPi is your friend, but even then hold something back for unexpected repairs ..
All things being equal however take the Carrera with the motronic and 3.2 litre engine. I imagine it will be at a higher procepoint. if it is too high for you the SC will be fine as long as it checks out .
PPi is your friend, but even then hold something back for unexpected repairs ..
#11
Rennlist Member
This thread reminded me of a post that I responded to a few years ago. That thread involved someone who was advised by a shop to not purchase an SC, and encouraged to buy a 3.2 Carrera instead. I can’t find my post, but it was largely a cost/benefit study of the two cars, and went something like this based on hand-written scribbles in my file.
The newest SC is a 1983, the oldest 3.2 is an ’84, and a nice ’81 is only five years older than a good ’86. Needless to say, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs. The first thing we do is throw out the comparables of the two models. The SC and Carrera, through ’86, all use the same clutch, and engine removal is no more difficult on one as the other. The ’87-89 3.2 cars use a different, more expensive, clutch. It is no more reliable, requires additional labor, and the flywheel, if worn, can’t be machined. I think that it’s safe to say that the clutch is a wash.
Starter motors, shock absorbers, tires, suspension components, brakes, etc., are pretty much the same on both models. SCs and ’84-86 Carreras use a clutch cable; ’87-89 Carreras use a slave cylinder and related hydraulics. Those items can be considered a wash because replacement frequency is similar.
Minor and major services on both models are fairly equal in both labor times, parts, and mileage periods; and life expectancy of alternators, motor mounts and oxygen sensors aren’t different enough to mention.
Let’s look at the “replace once in a blue moon” items. They are reference sensors (3.2), oxygen sensor relay (SC), auxiliary air valve (SC), injectors (both), decel valve (SC), idle control valve (3.2), and throttle switch (3.2). Another pretty equal category, I would have to say.
The biggie repairs are ones that a super-sized wallet can make easier. Each model has a glitch in this category; SCs (some more than others) suffer from broken cylinder head studs, and 3.2 cars (some) suffer from high oil consumption. Cost-wise those two jobs are comparable, certainly close enough to not weigh one model against the other.
All SCs and the first three years of 3.2 cars use the same transmission, the 915, so that’s a wash. Enter the G 50, used in ’87-89 Carreras, that’s a bullet-proof unit that should last at least 250,000 miles. So, the ’87-89 cars edge ahead in our “race.” But wait a minute! The typical SC synchro repair will cost between $1500 and $2500 (more for a “rebuild”), while the typical 3.2 car with a G 50 will cost $5,000 - $8,000 more than a comparable condition SC to buy. Of course, you get power seats and improved A/C along with the great trans. But that, in my mind, is not sufficient cause to eliminate an SC (or ’84-86 Carrera) from consideration.
Let’s explore other typical repairs that SCs and 3.2 cars require over time. I’ll mention here that this is pretty consistent through 200K miles, beyond that many “repairs” become “restorations.” We’ll start with the famous SC airbox; replacement will set the SC owner back $1200 - $1400. On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900.
CIS fuel injection (SCs) use a part called a Control Pressure Regulator, aka Warm-Up Regulator. The part is rarely replaced, most often when moisture has entered the car’s fuel system. With moisture present all bets are off for both models! The part is available for about $600, and labor/setup adds another $200. On the other side, 3.2 Carreras have a pair of engine compartment fuel lines that require replacement, which, including intake manifold R&I, will remove about $1,000 from your wallet. Back to the SCs, and a part called an accumulator which will cost about $350 (diagnosis and labor replacement is minimal).
3.2 Carreras have two relatively small issues, one can leave you stranded (DME relay); the other will make the car exhibit unusual symptoms (cylinder head temp sensor). The relay will cost you about $50, the sensor about $350 installed. So, at this point, repair costs are $2350 (SCs) and $2150 (3.2s). Have we got evidence yet that SCs should be avoided, or even be reduced to a second-tier car? I think not.
Upgrades. OK, Carrera tensioners. That’s about it, and so many SCs have had this done it’s almost like they were original equipment anyway. Yes, we can mention anti-roll bars with increased diameters, but don’t forget, if you “must do” them to an SC, you also must “upgrade” ‘84/85 Carreras with them also.
I think that this post clearly shows that either car (SC or Carrera) is worth consideration, and that for every potential purchase condition should be the overwhelming factor. Like I said earlier, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs here.
The newest SC is a 1983, the oldest 3.2 is an ’84, and a nice ’81 is only five years older than a good ’86. Needless to say, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs. The first thing we do is throw out the comparables of the two models. The SC and Carrera, through ’86, all use the same clutch, and engine removal is no more difficult on one as the other. The ’87-89 3.2 cars use a different, more expensive, clutch. It is no more reliable, requires additional labor, and the flywheel, if worn, can’t be machined. I think that it’s safe to say that the clutch is a wash.
Starter motors, shock absorbers, tires, suspension components, brakes, etc., are pretty much the same on both models. SCs and ’84-86 Carreras use a clutch cable; ’87-89 Carreras use a slave cylinder and related hydraulics. Those items can be considered a wash because replacement frequency is similar.
Minor and major services on both models are fairly equal in both labor times, parts, and mileage periods; and life expectancy of alternators, motor mounts and oxygen sensors aren’t different enough to mention.
Let’s look at the “replace once in a blue moon” items. They are reference sensors (3.2), oxygen sensor relay (SC), auxiliary air valve (SC), injectors (both), decel valve (SC), idle control valve (3.2), and throttle switch (3.2). Another pretty equal category, I would have to say.
The biggie repairs are ones that a super-sized wallet can make easier. Each model has a glitch in this category; SCs (some more than others) suffer from broken cylinder head studs, and 3.2 cars (some) suffer from high oil consumption. Cost-wise those two jobs are comparable, certainly close enough to not weigh one model against the other.
All SCs and the first three years of 3.2 cars use the same transmission, the 915, so that’s a wash. Enter the G 50, used in ’87-89 Carreras, that’s a bullet-proof unit that should last at least 250,000 miles. So, the ’87-89 cars edge ahead in our “race.” But wait a minute! The typical SC synchro repair will cost between $1500 and $2500 (more for a “rebuild”), while the typical 3.2 car with a G 50 will cost $5,000 - $8,000 more than a comparable condition SC to buy. Of course, you get power seats and improved A/C along with the great trans. But that, in my mind, is not sufficient cause to eliminate an SC (or ’84-86 Carrera) from consideration.
Let’s explore other typical repairs that SCs and 3.2 cars require over time. I’ll mention here that this is pretty consistent through 200K miles, beyond that many “repairs” become “restorations.” We’ll start with the famous SC airbox; replacement will set the SC owner back $1200 - $1400. On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900.
CIS fuel injection (SCs) use a part called a Control Pressure Regulator, aka Warm-Up Regulator. The part is rarely replaced, most often when moisture has entered the car’s fuel system. With moisture present all bets are off for both models! The part is available for about $600, and labor/setup adds another $200. On the other side, 3.2 Carreras have a pair of engine compartment fuel lines that require replacement, which, including intake manifold R&I, will remove about $1,000 from your wallet. Back to the SCs, and a part called an accumulator which will cost about $350 (diagnosis and labor replacement is minimal).
3.2 Carreras have two relatively small issues, one can leave you stranded (DME relay); the other will make the car exhibit unusual symptoms (cylinder head temp sensor). The relay will cost you about $50, the sensor about $350 installed. So, at this point, repair costs are $2350 (SCs) and $2150 (3.2s). Have we got evidence yet that SCs should be avoided, or even be reduced to a second-tier car? I think not.
Upgrades. OK, Carrera tensioners. That’s about it, and so many SCs have had this done it’s almost like they were original equipment anyway. Yes, we can mention anti-roll bars with increased diameters, but don’t forget, if you “must do” them to an SC, you also must “upgrade” ‘84/85 Carreras with them also.
I think that this post clearly shows that either car (SC or Carrera) is worth consideration, and that for every potential purchase condition should be the overwhelming factor. Like I said earlier, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs here.
#12
This thread reminded me of a post that I responded to a few years ago. That thread involved someone who was advised by a shop to not purchase an SC, and encouraged to buy a 3.2 Carrera instead. I can’t find my post, but it was largely a cost/benefit study of the two cars, and went something like this based on hand-written scribbles in my file. The newest SC is a 1983, the oldest 3.2 is an ’84, and a nice ’81 is only five years older than a good ’86. Needless to say, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs. The first thing we do is throw out the comparables of the two models. The SC and Carrera, through ’86, all use the same clutch, and engine removal is no more difficult on one as the other. The ’87-89 3.2 cars use a different, more expensive, clutch. It is no more reliable, requires additional labor, and the flywheel, if worn, can’t be machined. I think that it’s safe to say that the clutch is a wash. Starter motors, shock absorbers, tires, suspension components, brakes, etc., are pretty much the same on both models. SCs and ’84-86 Carreras use a clutch cable; ’87-89 Carreras use a slave cylinder and related hydraulics. Those items can be considered a wash because replacement frequency is similar. Minor and major services on both models are fairly equal in both labor times, parts, and mileage periods; and life expectancy of alternators, motor mounts and oxygen sensors aren’t different enough to mention. Let’s look at the “replace once in a blue moon” items. They are reference sensors (3.2), oxygen sensor relay (SC), auxiliary air valve (SC), injectors (both), decel valve (SC), idle control valve (3.2), and throttle switch (3.2). Another pretty equal category, I would have to say. The biggie repairs are ones that a super-sized wallet can make easier. Each model has a glitch in this category; SCs (some more than others) suffer from broken cylinder head studs, and 3.2 cars (some) suffer from high oil consumption. Cost-wise those two jobs are comparable, certainly close enough to not weigh one model against the other. All SCs and the first three years of 3.2 cars use the same transmission, the 915, so that’s a wash. Enter the G 50, used in ’87-89 Carreras, that’s a bullet-proof unit that should last at least 250,000 miles. So, the ’87-89 cars edge ahead in our “race.” But wait a minute! The typical SC synchro repair will cost between $1500 and $2500 (more for a “rebuild&rdquo, while the typical 3.2 car with a G 50 will cost $5,000 - $8,000 more than a comparable condition SC to buy. Of course, you get power seats and improved A/C along with the great trans. But that, in my mind, is not sufficient cause to eliminate an SC (or ’84-86 Carrera) from consideration. Let’s explore other typical repairs that SCs and 3.2 cars require over time. I’ll mention here that this is pretty consistent through 200K miles, beyond that many “repairs” become “restorations.” We’ll start with the famous SC airbox; replacement will set the SC owner back $1200 - $1400. On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900. CIS fuel injection (SCs) use a part called a Control Pressure Regulator, aka Warm-Up Regulator. The part is rarely replaced, most often when moisture has entered the car’s fuel system. With moisture present all bets are off for both models! The part is available for about $600, and labor/setup adds another $200. On the other side, 3.2 Carreras have a pair of engine compartment fuel lines that require replacement, which, including intake manifold R&I, will remove about $1,000 from your wallet. Back to the SCs, and a part called an accumulator which will cost about $350 (diagnosis and labor replacement is minimal). 3.2 Carreras have two relatively small issues, one can leave you stranded (DME relay); the other will make the car exhibit unusual symptoms (cylinder head temp sensor). The relay will cost you about $50, the sensor about $350 installed. So, at this point, repair costs are $2350 (SCs) and $2150 (3.2s). Have we got evidence yet that SCs should be avoided, or even be reduced to a second-tier car? I think not. Upgrades. OK, Carrera tensioners. That’s about it, and so many SCs have had this done it’s almost like they were original equipment anyway. Yes, we can mention anti-roll bars with increased diameters, but don’t forget, if you “must do” them to an SC, you also must “upgrade” ‘84/85 Carreras with them also. I think that this post clearly shows that either car (SC or Carrera) is worth consideration, and that for every potential purchase condition should be the overwhelming factor. Like I said earlier, we’re not talking Model As and Mustangs here.
#14
Team Owner
I agree with Pete on the maintanance repair side ( and i do own an SC ) . So again if everything else being equal why would you turn down the 3.2 extra power and ability to chip if desired.
if it is more expensive a car , that is what you are paying for ...
and one more thing Pete didnt mention .. the A/C in both is the same .. it doesnt work in either
if it is more expensive a car , that is what you are paying for ...
and one more thing Pete didnt mention .. the A/C in both is the same .. it doesnt work in either
Last edited by theiceman; 10-22-2013 at 08:41 AM.
#15
We’ll start with the famous SC airbox; replacement will set the SC owner back $1200 - $1400.
On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900.
.
On the flip side, the 3.2 Carrera’s air flow meter will fail in a way that the car will still run, but fail its annual/bi-annual smog inspection. Replacement is necessary; and the cost will be $800 - $900.
.
Holy crap.
$1200 for a plastic air box? Like the air filter housing!?!
$800 for a MAF? They are like $150 for other cars.
Holy crap.