typical maintenance costs
07-04-2001, 02:39 AM
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typical maintenance costs
I'm looking to buy either a very clean '82-'83 SC or an '87-'89 Carrera. I like the G50 gearbox, but this will be a 3rd car (that I can hopefully drive most everyday in my LA commute), so spending less is an easier sell with my wife.
I've read most of the usual stuff and think I know the potential problems, especially with SC's (tensioners, rubber-centered clutch, airbox). What I'm wondering is what would be considered a typical amount of money spent per year on maintenance. On Ebay there was a 911SC with records and a statement from the local shop saying it was one of the best Sc's they'd seen. Then the list of service showed that the car was in the shop almost once a month for 3 years...mostly little stuff, but still that blows.
What would be a typical service schedule for one with about 100K? Is it worth it so stretch to get the '87 carrera? My other alternative is a '94 Audi S4...different beast I know, but fast and fun too.
I've read most of the usual stuff and think I know the potential problems, especially with SC's (tensioners, rubber-centered clutch, airbox). What I'm wondering is what would be considered a typical amount of money spent per year on maintenance. On Ebay there was a 911SC with records and a statement from the local shop saying it was one of the best Sc's they'd seen. Then the list of service showed that the car was in the shop almost once a month for 3 years...mostly little stuff, but still that blows.
What would be a typical service schedule for one with about 100K? Is it worth it so stretch to get the '87 carrera? My other alternative is a '94 Audi S4...different beast I know, but fast and fun too.
07-04-2001, 05:01 AM
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A few comments...
First, with no disrespect intended, I honestly don't understand why anyone looks seriously for a car on e-bay. People who shop e-bay will bid up just about anything...and the seller's know it (next time I have something to sell, I am going to sell it on e-bay...seller's dream). I have never truly seen a car worth serious consideration on e-bay that I couldn't find for a better value somewhere else. If you a looking for a very good example of the 911's you mention, be patient, talk to PCA guys, and look at more enthusiast oriented sites, such as: the Rennlist classifieds and
www.porsche-classifieds.com
There is a big price difference between a SC and a later model Carrera in similar condition. The maintenance costs will depend on how frequently you drive the car and how you drive it, when you drive it. An older 911 will definately require more TLC than a S4 (like you indicated, apples and oranges...the S4 is a GREAT car, though!). Before I comment on maintenance costs, which car do you think will depreciate more quickly over, say, the next 5 years...the 911 or the S4? A new S4 will be worth significantly less. The SC will likely hold its value or decline slightly...its already depreciated. Just throwing that out because I think it offsets some of the maintenance cost. Anyway, back to the point...because the 911 is air cooled, you are looking at higher cost oil changes(12 qts). Depending on where you live, the service options available, and the oil you use, I would plan on about $60+ per oil change (higher if using synthetic oil). You will also do oil changes more frequently than a S4 (every 3,000 for a 911 vs. 5,000+ for a S4). You will also want to adjust the valves on a 911 every 6,000 miles or so. This is done with an oil change for ~$350 (again prices vary I am sure). If you have an SC with AC, you could encounter some additional costs, as these seem to be a frequent enough trouble spot. Also, tires will wear faster (they can't be rotated). Aside from that, maintenance cost will be similar to other cars built during that time frame. Keep in mind, with an SC you are talking about a car that is almost 20 years old. If it is well maintained it can run like a dream. If not, expect headaches. If you are somewhat mechanically inclined or willing to learn, you can do some of the maintenance yourself and save a few bucks. It can be fun if you don't mind wrenching on things. The SC is a fairly simple car. However, if you run into major problems (i.e. engine or transmission) then, expectedly, you are looking at a major outlay of cash (moreso than other cars). Which brings me to my next point...
Assuming you go with the 911 (again, the S4 is a fantastic and much more practical rocket ship...but its not a 911), regardless of which year you decide on, get a pre-purchase inspection done by a good reputable 911 mechanic of YOUR choosing. Also, I have found that if you are looking for a REAL clean car, it is prudent to have a body shop that specializes in 911's take a look at the car to ensure its integrity. Do your due diligence! It's work but worth the effort. There is still something about my 911 that puts a grin on my face every time I sit in it...even though its almost 20 years old. Quite simply, it is a bare bones, BLAST to drive!!!
Regardless of what car you decide on, you are looking at a couple of very fun cars and I am sure you will be happy. Good luck!
[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: J-RAD ]
First, with no disrespect intended, I honestly don't understand why anyone looks seriously for a car on e-bay. People who shop e-bay will bid up just about anything...and the seller's know it (next time I have something to sell, I am going to sell it on e-bay...seller's dream). I have never truly seen a car worth serious consideration on e-bay that I couldn't find for a better value somewhere else. If you a looking for a very good example of the 911's you mention, be patient, talk to PCA guys, and look at more enthusiast oriented sites, such as: the Rennlist classifieds and
www.porsche-classifieds.com
There is a big price difference between a SC and a later model Carrera in similar condition. The maintenance costs will depend on how frequently you drive the car and how you drive it, when you drive it. An older 911 will definately require more TLC than a S4 (like you indicated, apples and oranges...the S4 is a GREAT car, though!). Before I comment on maintenance costs, which car do you think will depreciate more quickly over, say, the next 5 years...the 911 or the S4? A new S4 will be worth significantly less. The SC will likely hold its value or decline slightly...its already depreciated. Just throwing that out because I think it offsets some of the maintenance cost. Anyway, back to the point...because the 911 is air cooled, you are looking at higher cost oil changes(12 qts). Depending on where you live, the service options available, and the oil you use, I would plan on about $60+ per oil change (higher if using synthetic oil). You will also do oil changes more frequently than a S4 (every 3,000 for a 911 vs. 5,000+ for a S4). You will also want to adjust the valves on a 911 every 6,000 miles or so. This is done with an oil change for ~$350 (again prices vary I am sure). If you have an SC with AC, you could encounter some additional costs, as these seem to be a frequent enough trouble spot. Also, tires will wear faster (they can't be rotated). Aside from that, maintenance cost will be similar to other cars built during that time frame. Keep in mind, with an SC you are talking about a car that is almost 20 years old. If it is well maintained it can run like a dream. If not, expect headaches. If you are somewhat mechanically inclined or willing to learn, you can do some of the maintenance yourself and save a few bucks. It can be fun if you don't mind wrenching on things. The SC is a fairly simple car. However, if you run into major problems (i.e. engine or transmission) then, expectedly, you are looking at a major outlay of cash (moreso than other cars). Which brings me to my next point...
Assuming you go with the 911 (again, the S4 is a fantastic and much more practical rocket ship...but its not a 911), regardless of which year you decide on, get a pre-purchase inspection done by a good reputable 911 mechanic of YOUR choosing. Also, I have found that if you are looking for a REAL clean car, it is prudent to have a body shop that specializes in 911's take a look at the car to ensure its integrity. Do your due diligence! It's work but worth the effort. There is still something about my 911 that puts a grin on my face every time I sit in it...even though its almost 20 years old. Quite simply, it is a bare bones, BLAST to drive!!!
Regardless of what car you decide on, you are looking at a couple of very fun cars and I am sure you will be happy. Good luck!
[ 07-04-2001: Message edited by: J-RAD ]
07-04-2001, 12:29 PM
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Thanks for the comments. Just to clarify, I would never buy a car off eBay (unless it was a local car that I could actually see). I look on eBay to get for information the see what the market is like. As far as actual buying I spend most of my time on Autotrader.com.
While I'm looking at a new S4 that will depreciate heavily in the next few years, I also have my eye on a used '94 S4. It has already taken most of its dive. The only concern there is that it is 115K miles, and if I decide to sell it after a year, I will have a much harder time finding a buyer relative to a 911.
While I'm looking at a new S4 that will depreciate heavily in the next few years, I also have my eye on a used '94 S4. It has already taken most of its dive. The only concern there is that it is 115K miles, and if I decide to sell it after a year, I will have a much harder time finding a buyer relative to a 911.
07-04-2001, 01:01 PM
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Another consideration on costs of owning a car like that should be your ability to work on it. You stated that the previous owner had the car in the shop almost monthly "for little things" take a look and see how much of that shop time you could do your self. These cars are for the most part very easy to work on and a good general knowledge of your car obtained by working on it will make your owning experience much greater.
As far as Ebay goes I am a frequent buyer as well as a frequent seller. I have never bought a car off of it and i would never purchase a car sight unseen. I will tell you that for some reason EBAY has become an easy bashing target. I have found some great deals on P-Parts on Ebay and the ones that get bid up, just stop your bidding and no loss. Ebay is just a forum it is the sellers and buyers that make or break it.
As far as Ebay goes I am a frequent buyer as well as a frequent seller. I have never bought a car off of it and i would never purchase a car sight unseen. I will tell you that for some reason EBAY has become an easy bashing target. I have found some great deals on P-Parts on Ebay and the ones that get bid up, just stop your bidding and no loss. Ebay is just a forum it is the sellers and buyers that make or break it.
07-05-2001, 05:16 PM
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911 ownership is expensive and addicting-My 85 carrera targa was $25k with 40,000 miles in what I "thought" was mint condition. I was planning on concouring it when I bought it. After 9 months I have put about $2k into it for repairs, parts, goodies, ect. In general, it WAS in mint condition-but not PERFECT condition like it is now. I did alot of the work myself so the bills would have been higher for a lay-person. OH! I forgot about the wheels I had to buy! Paid $700 for a set of factory fuchs 6"&7" in "new" condition and sold the BBS wheels it came with for $450.00. so add another $300.00 I have a wife and 3 kids, so I know what you mean about wifey's approval. My wife was cool about it at first, but after all of my fussing with it and the car show, I took 2nd place @ PCA peachstate concours, she hates it! This has made the 911 rather "un-enjoyable" for me. My advice- buy a car you will just get in and drive-Porsche or Audi- a marriage is worth more than the sheer ecstasy you will find in a 911! 
07-06-2001, 02:37 AM
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So you wouldn't consider any Porsche or Audi a car you "just get in and drive"? My 4-runner is definately that...97K and a grand total of 2 service visits for tune and valve adjust. I'd love to get a newer Audi that has a warranty, but I just don't want to spend that much money. I'm also looking at a '94 Audi S4 (290hp...woohoo), but I fear that with 115K it might also be a money sink...although it has been owned by a dealer employee that has taken meticulous care of it (so it seems).
07-06-2001, 03:09 AM
#7
I don't know anything about Audi's, but I come from a background of the so-called "Japanese super cars". I now own a '91 C4, which, compared to the SC and 3.2 Carrera, has much higher expected maintenance and repair costs.
Before I bought my C4, I did a little "study" in order to determine which would be the most cost effective option...getting a used 911 (considered the 964, 3.2 Carrera, and the SC) sticking with keeping my old "Japanese super car", or getting a different model of a "Japanese super car". I found out all the typical things that could go wrong with the cars in question based on age and mileage (failures as well as maintenance), made a list, and then started called repair shops to see how much it would cost to fix each item in the list. Believe it or not, as costly as the 964 is to fix, it's CHEAP compared to a "Japanese super car" (these, for what it's worth, would include a Nissan 300ZX TT, Toyota Supra TT, Dodge Stealth RT/TT - Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4, and a Mazda RX-7 TT). The parts prices for some of the Japanese cars are absolutely astronomical....particularly the Supra and the Stealth/3000GT (same car, one with a Dodge re-labelling).
For what it's worth the order of the 911 family from best to worst in terms of cost is SC, 3.2 Carrera, and then the 964 (I doubt that surprises anyone on this list). SCs are UNBELIEVABLY low cost PROVIDED all the updates have been done...in fact of all the cars I checked out they were by far the lowest cost cars to maintain I could find, and if all the fixes and updates are already done for you by someone else they're just that much better!
Like I said, I know nothing about Audi's, but any car using timing belts can be a can of worms. Are the engines interferrence or non-interferrence types? I would recommend that you do a similar study with your Audi vs. 911s if you have the time. Keep in mind in doing so that you shouldn't bias yourself...it's very easy to con yourself into believing what you want to believe vs. the truth!
When doing my "study" I stayed away from dealerships since their prices always seem to be inflated and my experience with them dealing with my Japanese cars has been marginal at best.
Hope this helps,
Bill Wagner
[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Bill Wagner ]
Before I bought my C4, I did a little "study" in order to determine which would be the most cost effective option...getting a used 911 (considered the 964, 3.2 Carrera, and the SC) sticking with keeping my old "Japanese super car", or getting a different model of a "Japanese super car". I found out all the typical things that could go wrong with the cars in question based on age and mileage (failures as well as maintenance), made a list, and then started called repair shops to see how much it would cost to fix each item in the list. Believe it or not, as costly as the 964 is to fix, it's CHEAP compared to a "Japanese super car" (these, for what it's worth, would include a Nissan 300ZX TT, Toyota Supra TT, Dodge Stealth RT/TT - Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4, and a Mazda RX-7 TT). The parts prices for some of the Japanese cars are absolutely astronomical....particularly the Supra and the Stealth/3000GT (same car, one with a Dodge re-labelling).
For what it's worth the order of the 911 family from best to worst in terms of cost is SC, 3.2 Carrera, and then the 964 (I doubt that surprises anyone on this list). SCs are UNBELIEVABLY low cost PROVIDED all the updates have been done...in fact of all the cars I checked out they were by far the lowest cost cars to maintain I could find, and if all the fixes and updates are already done for you by someone else they're just that much better!
Like I said, I know nothing about Audi's, but any car using timing belts can be a can of worms. Are the engines interferrence or non-interferrence types? I would recommend that you do a similar study with your Audi vs. 911s if you have the time. Keep in mind in doing so that you shouldn't bias yourself...it's very easy to con yourself into believing what you want to believe vs. the truth!
When doing my "study" I stayed away from dealerships since their prices always seem to be inflated and my experience with them dealing with my Japanese cars has been marginal at best.
Hope this helps,
Bill Wagner
[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: Bill Wagner ]
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07-06-2001, 03:28 AM
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The main issues I've read about with the sc's is airbox (needs blow off), chain tensioners ('80 and on better than 78-79, but "carrera" mod is best fix), and rubber-centered clutch. Once those are done people seem to say that as long as you change the oil every 3K and adjust valves ever 6K, they can run for a long long time (300K or more).
Having driven a '67 bug almost to death, I have a warm fuzzy for air cooled engines. I must say I am a bit leery of a motor with turbo (but man, that S4 is FAST).
Good info on the comparison. I'll try and get some comparable data on the Audi. One problem is they only imported about 500 S4's in '94 (total of about 1500 over 3 years), so I don't think parts grow on trees, and neither do buyers. If I could get it real cheap it wouldn't be bad, because then if I need to sell I could dump it. But if I pay near asking price, I'll lose at least a couple grand. I'm thinking if I get a real clean SC for around $15K, I should be able to sell it for close to that in a year or two. The trend for the last year or two has actually be *up* on prices, with SC's having some of the biggest increases.
Having driven a '67 bug almost to death, I have a warm fuzzy for air cooled engines. I must say I am a bit leery of a motor with turbo (but man, that S4 is FAST).
Good info on the comparison. I'll try and get some comparable data on the Audi. One problem is they only imported about 500 S4's in '94 (total of about 1500 over 3 years), so I don't think parts grow on trees, and neither do buyers. If I could get it real cheap it wouldn't be bad, because then if I need to sell I could dump it. But if I pay near asking price, I'll lose at least a couple grand. I'm thinking if I get a real clean SC for around $15K, I should be able to sell it for close to that in a year or two. The trend for the last year or two has actually be *up* on prices, with SC's having some of the biggest increases.
07-06-2001, 12:31 PM
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Time out!!! For some reason, I thought you were considering the current, newer Audi S4 (2000+)!!!...I don't know why I missed that in your original post...my fault! 
While the older (1992-1994) S4's are still fairly quick, there is no comparing it to the fun factor of a 911!!! Since you stated this will be a 3rd car, this is a no brainer...Get a 911!!!
[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: J-RAD ]
While the older (1992-1994) S4's are still fairly quick, there is no comparing it to the fun factor of a 911!!! Since you stated this will be a 3rd car, this is a no brainer...Get a 911!!!
[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: J-RAD ]
07-07-2001, 03:01 AM
#10
You might want to consider looking into how much an Audi will depreciate over the next several years as opposed to a 911. An SC, if well cared for likely will retain it's value and might even go up. I have no idea what will happen to an Audi, but my guess is that, like many cars, once it's about 10 years old it will be worth about what it's value is as a "part out" car.
Worth checking out,
Bill Wagner
Worth checking out,
Bill Wagner
07-07-2001, 11:28 AM
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nostatic- I didn't mean don't buy either car. What I meant was, buy the one you feel you can just drive, wash, and repair when necessary as you would any other car. My problem was that I obsessed with making my car perfect because after all- a 911 should have a certain amount of dignity don't you think? I think alot of us spend way too much time on our 911s because it is enjoyable and addictive. I can't speak for everyone, but wife is not happy competing with the porsche for my attention. And 911s NEED attention. The problem with these cars is that they are so well made that even after 15 or 25 years, it is reletively aesy to make them like new again! BUT! It takes time to do it. I wouldn't bother spending the time on most other cars-but that's just me. Does anyone know where the Porsche-aholics meet? Would anyone like to be my sponsor?heheeh------------Do you get the picture?
07-07-2001, 01:49 PM
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Gotcha. I see there is a need for a 12-step Porsche group. I shall start writing the Big Book immediately....
Luckily I don't think I will obsess on the car....I just want it to run well and not look *too* bad....at least that's what I say now ;-)
Luckily I don't think I will obsess on the car....I just want it to run well and not look *too* bad....at least that's what I say now ;-)