Why so bloody expensive - rebuild
11-27-2010, 09:54 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Hell no. I just know what big chunks have cost. They are simple to add in my head, unfortunately.
Even my wife is starting to develop a rudimentary concept of what this ol' car has cost. But, she knows it's one of the things I love, and you can't put a price on such enjoyment.
Even my wife is starting to develop a rudimentary concept of what this ol' car has cost. But, she knows it's one of the things I love, and you can't put a price on such enjoyment.
11-27-2010, 10:28 PM
#33
Race Car
I think my point was missed as well. Shepp is right too(by the way shepp, I just read a quick blurb about Carr amps) and Ed also - a guy who knows. I can't echo race911 enough; Porsche techs don't make a lot of money, but carry a lot of liability; they have to be good(or stupid). There's more money in wrenching elsewhere. I'm an advocate of any 911 owner getting in there and sorting things out, but a well built SBC, 318, or 930 motor requires a bit of attention and patience not found in shop class. Anybody adept at one will know enough to do damage - and know enough to ask questions.
Just think of all those 911s out there that had their motors screwed up by budding young mechanics...it's amazing any of them run.
Just think of all those 911s out there that had their motors screwed up by budding young mechanics...it's amazing any of them run.
11-27-2010, 10:42 PM
#34
Race Car
Let them make money. I'm fine with that. There is clearly a place in the market for them. Just understand that Excellent is selling advertising space and marketing to people who are already heavily invested in the car. If they can publish that job "A" costs $25,000 on the open market but through an advertised vendor one can get job "A" for $15,000 they are going to sell more magazines and more advertising.
again, very simple math.
again, very simple math.
Jerry Woods' ad in the mainstream is very small mind you, and Excellence sales aren't thriving on motor meister.
11-27-2010, 11:07 PM
#35
I haddah Google dat
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I can add, I'm just in huge denial. Once my receipt for the WEVO billet shifter fell out of the folder, and I looked at it and the receipt for my 930S steering wheel. I almost crapped my pants. So I never add up my receipts.
And +1 to the sentiment that you should not take too lightly the years of experience that Porsche wrenches have. Probably the best thing is to either take a case or two of beer with you to the Porsche machinist, and lean heavy on him, or just punt and find a retired Porsche mechanic who knows the ins and outs, and see if he'll let you participate hands on in the rebuilt. My friend Tony is the latter, and has let me wrench on many of his customer 911s. I helped him lay the crankshaft into one, and we bolted up the cylinders together. It was the coolest thing ever. He's showed me intake valves from 912s that were piled high with carbon, fresh out of the head. Stuff that you'd never see in your own garage. But I have known him for years, and take him trees and Porsche gear just because he's a friend.
And +1 to the sentiment that you should not take too lightly the years of experience that Porsche wrenches have. Probably the best thing is to either take a case or two of beer with you to the Porsche machinist, and lean heavy on him, or just punt and find a retired Porsche mechanic who knows the ins and outs, and see if he'll let you participate hands on in the rebuilt. My friend Tony is the latter, and has let me wrench on many of his customer 911s. I helped him lay the crankshaft into one, and we bolted up the cylinders together. It was the coolest thing ever. He's showed me intake valves from 912s that were piled high with carbon, fresh out of the head. Stuff that you'd never see in your own garage. But I have known him for years, and take him trees and Porsche gear just because he's a friend.
11-27-2010, 11:15 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Yeah, drop your first crank into place and then button up the case. You'll either quickly think this is gonna be fun, or f&@k(!)-what have I gotten myself into?!?
Last edited by Ed Hughes; 11-28-2010 at 12:36 AM.
11-28-2010, 01:02 AM
#37
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have never explicitly added up reciepts, but I am a numbers guy by training, so I can't help but know pretty much what I've spent. And I've hardly even driven the thing yet.
I am the king of stupid when it comes to these cars, and I do worry about eventually rebuilding the motor. I have looked at what the variouis parts cost, and even factoring in that I will do most of the labour, it will still be very, very expensive - especially with new P's & C's.
They are complicated motors and it is hard to just do "the bare minimum" when tearing into any part of a car likes this.
I am the king of stupid when it comes to these cars, and I do worry about eventually rebuilding the motor. I have looked at what the variouis parts cost, and even factoring in that I will do most of the labour, it will still be very, very expensive - especially with new P's & C's.
They are complicated motors and it is hard to just do "the bare minimum" when tearing into any part of a car likes this.
11-28-2010, 01:13 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Just for clarification, I probably would saved a few $, if I'd done the whole shebang-including p's and c's the first time. Also, my totals inlcuded $400 worth of engine part shipping to Ollie's when I lived in Texas, and I spent $700 in Cad plating, ceramic and powder coating. Also I also had cams ground and the twin-plugging cost a few $ (DME splitter, 964 distributor, machining and plug wires). I still bet it would've been $14-15K for a thorough stock rebuild with a lot of parts replacement/refurb and no short-cuts.
But again, the experience of doing this was priceless.
But again, the experience of doing this was priceless.
11-28-2010, 03:37 AM
#39
Advanced
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never add up the receipts. That way when the misses asks what you got into it you won't be lieing when you say "I don't know, but when you consider I don't have a car payment I don't think it is too bad".
Tom
Tom
11-28-2010, 08:13 AM
#41
You know that a Miata engine is just a block, a head, some pistons, a crank and cams, with a rubber band on the front. You can buy a whole car, already supercharged and built up, for less than the price of a 911 engine rebuild. And if you ever had to rebuild it, which you won't, the parts are going to be minimal and cheap.
And I figured this out all by myself, and thought I would just buy a built Miata and get away from 911s. But now I have the Miata AND the 911s, because I just wanted to drive a 911.
The thing is, the reason we all harp on PPI, PPI, PPI, is because you most likely will never rebuild a good 911 engine that has already had a top end job, especially if the right oil is being used, and you let the car warm up before you flog it. 911 engines are expensive, because they aren't a cast iron block with some pistons, and there aren't 2 million of them out on the road, so the aftermarket tends to run toward high end, low volume parts.
It isn't a conspiracy, and these cars were never built to be put in the hands of an average Joe like me. The reason they have an oil level gauge in the car is so that the original owners could check the oil without sullying themselves. They are no compromise sports cars, and the engines were somewhat less complicated than a four cylinder four cam Carrera engine, but they are an evolution of a design that came from a time when labor was cheaper than parts, and the cost of parts was put second to the design. The fact that you can flog one of these engines all day, every day for 200 thousand miles is still pretty amazing, but at the time they were built, it was really rather astounding.
Cost was secondary to this goal. If I had the brains, I would just sell my 928 and the 911 right now, and go with a more sensible option, like a Fiat. But I don't. At a certain point, it isn't about the money.
But I can tell you this. the only thing more expensive than a good 911 engine rebuild is a cheap 911 engine rebuild. And for every one guy who gets away with a Motor Meister rebuild, there are probably five who are crying. In this day and age of cars as appliances, we tend to buy now and research later. in the case of the 911, the smart money is in looking before you leap. You buy a cheap Miata to fix up cheap. You buy a well built 911 if you want to save money. Fixing them up cheap ? I don't think so.
Maintaining a good 911 for little money ? Well, that is doable. SO, you keep up with the small things, and if you ever need to shell out for a rebuild, then you know it is worth the money in the long run. The guy who buys a 911 and shells out 5,000.00 for a top end job only to sell it for what he paid for it is the guy who is missing out. To make it worthwhile, you have to drive the darn things, Garage Queens not withstanding.
Have you driven your 911 today ?
And I figured this out all by myself, and thought I would just buy a built Miata and get away from 911s. But now I have the Miata AND the 911s, because I just wanted to drive a 911.
The thing is, the reason we all harp on PPI, PPI, PPI, is because you most likely will never rebuild a good 911 engine that has already had a top end job, especially if the right oil is being used, and you let the car warm up before you flog it. 911 engines are expensive, because they aren't a cast iron block with some pistons, and there aren't 2 million of them out on the road, so the aftermarket tends to run toward high end, low volume parts.
It isn't a conspiracy, and these cars were never built to be put in the hands of an average Joe like me. The reason they have an oil level gauge in the car is so that the original owners could check the oil without sullying themselves. They are no compromise sports cars, and the engines were somewhat less complicated than a four cylinder four cam Carrera engine, but they are an evolution of a design that came from a time when labor was cheaper than parts, and the cost of parts was put second to the design. The fact that you can flog one of these engines all day, every day for 200 thousand miles is still pretty amazing, but at the time they were built, it was really rather astounding.
Cost was secondary to this goal. If I had the brains, I would just sell my 928 and the 911 right now, and go with a more sensible option, like a Fiat. But I don't. At a certain point, it isn't about the money.
But I can tell you this. the only thing more expensive than a good 911 engine rebuild is a cheap 911 engine rebuild. And for every one guy who gets away with a Motor Meister rebuild, there are probably five who are crying. In this day and age of cars as appliances, we tend to buy now and research later. in the case of the 911, the smart money is in looking before you leap. You buy a cheap Miata to fix up cheap. You buy a well built 911 if you want to save money. Fixing them up cheap ? I don't think so.
Maintaining a good 911 for little money ? Well, that is doable. SO, you keep up with the small things, and if you ever need to shell out for a rebuild, then you know it is worth the money in the long run. The guy who buys a 911 and shells out 5,000.00 for a top end job only to sell it for what he paid for it is the guy who is missing out. To make it worthwhile, you have to drive the darn things, Garage Queens not withstanding.
Have you driven your 911 today ?
11-28-2010, 01:04 PM
#42
Pro
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
---Danial Dudley----Miata and Porsche-------
We have an 83 SC and a 2000 Miata. I drive the Miata and my son drives the P because it is a safer car in the event of an accident. Something we don’t talk about much here. I have 2 spare engines for the Miata @ $600 for both. I had a spare for the SC and finally sold it cause after a few years the P looked like it was sound. I did keep the spare P tranny. I drive the M to Walmart and am not too concerned about ding damage or theft. 30mpg is nice but other than that the P is WAY ahead. The P is an absolute thrill every time.
Regarding cost, any used car is going to require repair. Buying a new car avoids that but the cost does not usually justify the $. I have never owned a new car in my 55 years of driving. Learning to wrench does help with used equipment. Turning a wrench for me has been a way to focus away from stress and work a day turmoil. If it cost me x in P car cost, I saved x times at least 3 in head shrink costs. A lot of guys sit on the couch glued to sports, drink, chase girls, play golf, or collect stamps, the wrench has been my escape. It has saved me money, not sure if it saved my mind or not.
We have an 83 SC and a 2000 Miata. I drive the Miata and my son drives the P because it is a safer car in the event of an accident. Something we don’t talk about much here. I have 2 spare engines for the Miata @ $600 for both. I had a spare for the SC and finally sold it cause after a few years the P looked like it was sound. I did keep the spare P tranny. I drive the M to Walmart and am not too concerned about ding damage or theft. 30mpg is nice but other than that the P is WAY ahead. The P is an absolute thrill every time.
Regarding cost, any used car is going to require repair. Buying a new car avoids that but the cost does not usually justify the $. I have never owned a new car in my 55 years of driving. Learning to wrench does help with used equipment. Turning a wrench for me has been a way to focus away from stress and work a day turmoil. If it cost me x in P car cost, I saved x times at least 3 in head shrink costs. A lot of guys sit on the couch glued to sports, drink, chase girls, play golf, or collect stamps, the wrench has been my escape. It has saved me money, not sure if it saved my mind or not.
11-28-2010, 03:00 PM
#44
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
For Ha-has I went over to the Pelican Web site and opened up the http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...engine_rebuild.
Assuming I had all the tools and books I would need, my P&C's were ok and all I really needed to do was replace the seals and bearings, I came up with a cost of $1,200 in parts.
Add about $6-700 to repalce valve guides, we are at $1,900 in parts and machine work.
Assume you can have the job done in 40 hours at $100/hr, add $4,000 and now you are at $5,900. This assumes there is nothing significantly wrong with your engine (new P&C, need for line boring etc).
Why the higher prices, you almost always will need more than the minimum for your engine unless you want to be back into it soon to fix the parts that were on the verge of failure .
After all, after a complete rebuild, would we not not want the engine to be able to go 200,000 miles before we need to revisit this? I wouldnot want to have to face another significant engine bill after 50,000+ miles.
Assuming I had all the tools and books I would need, my P&C's were ok and all I really needed to do was replace the seals and bearings, I came up with a cost of $1,200 in parts.
Add about $6-700 to repalce valve guides, we are at $1,900 in parts and machine work.
Assume you can have the job done in 40 hours at $100/hr, add $4,000 and now you are at $5,900. This assumes there is nothing significantly wrong with your engine (new P&C, need for line boring etc).
Why the higher prices, you almost always will need more than the minimum for your engine unless you want to be back into it soon to fix the parts that were on the verge of failure .
After all, after a complete rebuild, would we not not want the engine to be able to go 200,000 miles before we need to revisit this? I wouldnot want to have to face another significant engine bill after 50,000+ miles.
11-28-2010, 03:47 PM
#45
Addict
Steve, you have walked me through several projects as a "value added bonus" for parts I have purchased from you. If someone can pull his own heads, pack them in a box, and ship them to you, are you going to turn them away if all they ask you to install is valve guides? Replace valves as needed, but you aren't going to require porting, polishing, bench flow testing and twin plugs. If they send you a box full of pistons and cylinders are you going to refuse to double check them? I don't think so.
Point is that work can be divided up between owner and shop and not every "while you are in there" has to be done.
Point is that work can be divided up between owner and shop and not every "while you are in there" has to be done.