whalebird

Holy smokes...I forgot to mention Gatorade; that'll set you back a few coins.

Joe6pack

Thanks for all the replys. I should clarify that my 2-day comment was for assembly only assuming all machine work was done. My first 289 rebuild took 3 weeks and that was just for assembly (evenings only). Of course it was the first time and I checked and rechecked (and yes, re-did what I messed up). I was just trying to understand why the pros charge so much - because they can. Sounds like P-cars are pretty much like everything else - you can spend as much or as little as you want.

whalebird

Joe, your attitude is correct, and your experiance with other motors is very valuable. Good understudy of Porsche ownership, but you probably don't need a rebuild I'm assuming.
I failed miserably just now uploading some pics and lost a couple of paragraphs for this thread...I'm whipped, I'll try again later.
I've been thinking of pulling the 302 out of the bronco(1988) next year and I've gazzed endlessly at a Summit catalog as of late. What fun.

whalebird

So one plan I've had for years is to build a small block and bolt it into any old C10 I can pull out of the woods. But I really like a 327, but a 350 would be fine. I would just build it with no chassis to bolt it into-just take my time to build a SBC. You know - 400hp or so, cheap and easy. Then I get to studying: I would have to have a Jesel timing belt rig because they're so trick and a Lunati valve train, all forged down low and a set of Dart heads. My sports car back ground an experiance makes me want 4 down draft Webers on top - I want 7000 rpms. Then, you know, I'll just bolt it into that c10 I pulled out of the woods...cheap and easy.
So I ask you: why are these things so bloody expensive?

Amber Gramps

^^^ ....and my attitude comes from being a latch-key bastard with a guilty mother. By the age of 12 I could rebuild my RM80 blindfolded. At 14 I had my first stroker ATC, and at 16 I had swapped the cam in my Monte Carlo. By 17 I was the head of the pit crew at Riverside International for my shop teacher's factory Hemi Dart. At 18 I had rebuilt my 318 and was cutting push-rods to manipulate valve duration.

Sorry, but it makes this motor look simple.

rusnak

The teardown inspection is very important, and is one place where the rebuild can fall apart. If you are buying new p&c then half of the quoted cost is in those parts alone, and the cams. Use an experienced Porsche machine shop. Experience is important imho.

whalebird

I wasn't trying to say it's easy. I'm thinking more along the lines of getting wrapped around the perverbial axle, and none of them are cheap - even my SBC dream. You have to admit that a few grand for several hundred hp is fun to smoke over in one's mind.
A buddy had an old LT1 sitting in the shop - did all the machine work and then it just sat in pieces. He said he was going to put it together after he talked to some engine builders about the must-do tricks before he started on it. A guy who has built lots of them said "screw all that, take it down to the elementary school and let the kids in the sand box put it together at recess" The guy who owned this LT1 has several Daytona trophies as a 911 engine builder.

Amber Gramps

whalebird, I actually learned a lot from the "take it to the school" guys. They got work for free and we got to do work we could never have dreamed of doing to our own cars. I tuned the jets on a six-pack vette motor that I never even knew existed. Autoshop and ROP were far and away the best part of high school.

Now, would you trust this to a 17 y/o shop rat? You would if he had a dyno in the shop class...

race911

I think my overall point was missed. Let's put in in other terms. You have a project that requires 50+ hours of contract work. Could be a home remodeling project, could be setting up a computer network in an office. Wholesale price of parts and some sublet labor come to $7-9K. What's the overall job worth? You going to pay $12-15/hr., and not give a reasonable markup on handling the parts?

(Where's the guy who pissed me off earlier this year with a claim some Porsche shop was "ripping him off" based on his class envy over some BMW motorcycle dealership owner with his big house and expensive car fleet?)

In any case, if you think working on 911s is the key to the promised land of an easy early retirement sipping umbrella drinks on the beach with bikini girls catering to your every need, think again...................

Amber Gramps

Point well made, but....

If you are able to pound nails or hang your own sheet rock why not do it yourself and same a ton of money. I figure I've saved myself tens of thousands of dollars being able to change out my own heads and adjust my own valves. With every job I do for myself comes new tools and toys that are free to me as far as I'm concerned. If I took my chevy in every time it needed brakes I'd be broke.

I do understand some work needs to be done by pros, but if only 5 hours of a 10 hour job needs that level of attention you are big money ahead doing it yourself.

Look at it like I do....I'm on commission, but if I were to put in a 40 hour week I'd make about $31 buck an hour. A Porsche indy charges $100-$125 per hour. I'm up $69-94 per hour for every hour of labor I can do myself. It's a no brainer.

Joe6pack

I'm not trying to say that a rebuilder shouldn't make money. I am just trying to understand what makes a flat six so much more difficult than say a SBC. My "Because they can" comment probably had as much to do with supply an demand as difficulty. There are just far fewer shops with Porsche experience. Also, the completely different nature of the beast probably means switching from one architecture to the other is difficult. However, does it really take a Porsche specialist that much more effort to do a rebuild vs a Chevy specialist on a SBC. I'm thinking stock rebuilds here - nothing special.

The thing about the original comment in the article that bugs me is that I paid less than $15K for my car. So a rebuild using the criteria in the article renders the car a parts car. It reminds me of another forsaken chassis - the 107 Mercedes. I see them languishing on used car lots and in Craigslist ads and no one will touch them (of course I've owned 2). There is a gray market 1984 500SL sitting on a used car lot in Lawrenceville GA and it has been there for at least 3 years. The parts are expensive and it just costs too much to pay someone else to work on them. It would be sad to see older 911s resigned to the same fate.

Amber Gramps

Let them make money. I'm fine with that. There is clearly a place in the market for them. Just understand that Excellent is selling advertising space and marketing to people who are already heavily invested in the car. If they can publish that job "A" costs $25,000 on the open market but through an advertised vendor one can get job "A" for $15,000 they are going to sell more magazines and more advertising.

again, very simple math.

dshepp806

I think the pricing is a bit over-rated...all is relevant, however.

Best,

Doyle

Ed Hughes

If you're an engineer, once you look into it, you'll see there is no way this is a simpler engine than a water-cooled V-8. Parts are so expensive that it is easy (for me) to replace more perhaps, than what is needed during a rebuild, since it is so friggin' expensive.

I rebuilt mine reusing stock pistons and cylinders a couple of years ago and spent $10k. I didn't spare anything else. I did the work, except the machining.

This year, I increased to a high compression 3.4L and twin-plugged her. I'd did use new Mahle pistons and cylinders. About another $10k. So, I'm at $20k for a motor in a car I bought for $10k. It looked ok, and ran/drove ok too at that price. I don't add up my receipts, but I know I've got $50k+ in her. But that's ok, I'm sure I could get $13-14k on eBay.

rusnak

Never.

Ever.

Add up the receipts!