floete

As some of you know, I"m currently looking at a $12k 84 Carrera with 176K miles on it that's never had a top-end valve job done on it (to the owner's knowledge). I started thinking about that, and some of the feedback the car has received here, and called my local indy mechanic and told him the miles. His reaction was immediate. "That car needs a valve job. I don't even need to see it to know it. If it hasn't been done before, it needs it, no question." Cost: $5k to 78k, depending on what he finds while he's in there, natch.

Then I came here and did a search on the topic. Well, opinions on the matter run all over place. The owner of the car I'm looking at says it burns oil well within spec, 1 qt per 1k miles. But depending on whose opinion you want to take, oil consumption on a 178K mile car doesn't matter. It's going to need a top end job if not immediately then certainly before it reaches 200k miles. So, if you buy that car, price it accordingly. If you buy it at $12k, it's going to be almost a $20k Porsche on the top-end job alone, never mind the rest of it.

Here are two other tidbits I snatched from my reading here:

1 "It does seem that while there is no definitive answer, and some exceptions, the preponderance of evidence indicates that there less risk (and only an upside) to buying a car that has a known top-end rebuild performed (assuming of course the shop is reputable etc)."

2 "A higher mileage car with a top end already done is a good value."

Those two statements seem solid and irrefutable. That being the case, and assuming I have the willpower to overcome intervening contrary forces, shouldn't the Spockian logical course of action be to sit tight, cement my wallet to my pocket, and keep a steady lookout for a car that a/ has medium high miles (best value) and b/ has already had a top-end job performed. (This assumes everything else is okay, okay?)

It's all about cutting the risk factor and upping the odds of success. Let's say car A has 176k miles on it, burns no oil but has never had a top-end job. Let's say car B has 176k miles on it, burns no oil and *has had* a top end job. Car A costs about $3k less than car B. Both cars come back with leakdown tests that are just fine. Everything else is equal. Which car do you buy?

Naturally, this particular car I'm looking at might be an outlier, one of those that's going to go another 100k miles with no valve job needed. Could happen. But I'm not sure I'd put money on it.

What's the feeling here, especially concerning mid- to high- miles car. From what I've read, low miles cars are a whole separate issue.

Thanks once again!

Brett San Diego

Absolutely, better to buy a car that someone else has sunk a lot of money into without paying a big premium. But, how many of those cars are out there?

Still lots of variables, though, when you do find a car with a claimed top end job. Do you have receipts? Is the shop a reputable one? Is the valve job recent? What is the condition of the rest of the car?

I would not do a top end on a car without a reason. The reported mileage is not a reason. I don't see Pete Zimmerman hankering to rip apart his 200,000 mile SC's engine any time soon... Now that's an SC, and I believe there may be something about valve guide materials changing with the 3.2 L introduction in 84. I also recall reading that it seems to be a hit or miss thing. Some engines needed early work. Those that didn't ran forever (or, rather, are still running forever).

Brett

salukijac

Maybe you should increase your budget to around $16K and get a 100K-120K miles with a top end rebuild by a reputable shop.

At your price point, you're going to compromise on something. What that is will be up to you, but I truly believe you will compromise on something. And then remember all 911 are at least $20K 911s (of course there are exceptions).

At another one of your post I asked if you had nailed down your expectations. After nailing down those expectations you can ascertain if they are realistic.

aadrew10

where are you planning on driving your car?

floete

I'm in the process of evolving my expectations. Truthfully, when I embarked on this quest for a Porsche, I had no idea how many variables were involved and not only that, I had no idea how many of those variables interacted with other variables to create whole new variables. If taxing the brain does indeed decrease risk of alzheimer's like they say it does, I'm good for another 50 yrs on top of my current 55, because my brain is taxed to the max with all this stuff.

But for me, that's part of the fun -- developing a new skill set. I've always enjoyed that, and I'm enjoying it now. Right now, I'm trying to figure out where I can compromise. I've written a lists of likes and musts, now I have to develop a list of don't-cares and so-whats -- and they've got to be ones that have an actual impact on the bottom line.

It's been a great, fun journey, a much longer great fun journey than I'd expected but even so ... I'm digging it to the max.

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Where am I planning on driving my car? I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean locale, then the answer is New England. If you mean day-to-day travel, then the answer is just around town and on some of the windy back roads hereabouts.

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Brett writes: "Absolutely, better to buy a car that someone else has sunk a lot of money into without paying a big premium. But, how many of those cars are out there? Still lots of variables, though, when you do find a car with a claimed top end job. Do you have receipts? Is the shop a reputable one? Is the valve job recent? What is the condition of the rest of the car?"

All true. And I know they're hard to find. In fact, I had a shot at the perfect one a week or two ago, but the car was in CA, and I dithered. The owner, a well-known P guy, told me that the first fellow who came to look at it bought it on the spot, sans PPI. It was that good, and at an incredible price. I wouldn't have bought it without a PPI, I don't think, but I'm sure if I'd spoken up earlier, it would be mine right now.

Anyway, I think it's going to take a lot of patience, probably at the expense of sanity, for me to find the right car. At a certain point, I'm sure I'll just cry uncle, toss in the towel, and buy the next damn 911 that looks halfway decent. But I'm not there yet. At least I hope I'm not.

Thanks for weighing in!

dshepp806

Just be patient......your studious enthusiasm (and this forum's members) will "take you home", at some point.

Patience is NOT a virtue.

Required, however,..in this case.

Best to you,

Doyle

Ed Hughes

To say the car needs a valve job automatically due to its mileage is absurd, in my opinion. Any issues with valve guides in a particular car probably would've surfaced long before 100K. If it's made it to 176K and is not burning excessive oil, there is no reason to assume you need to do something by 200K.

MUSSBERGER

I don't know where you are but if you can get this car for 15........Go for it
http://www.lamborghinicarolinas.com/...11SC/index.htm

floete

Ed: I hear you. I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the implications. Can you expand a little on what you're saying? In other words, if we can't assume that it'll need valve work by 200k, is there anything we can reasonably and odds-on assume with this particular car (other than *****-nilly it's going to cost the new owner $20k soon or later...), given its miles and known-so-far history?

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Muss_etc.: that's one beautiful car. Do you have specific knowledge of it?

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Doyle - re patience. I'm trying my best to have it. It's a tough one, though. I'm a baby boomer through and through and am consequently used to my instant gratifications. This time, however, I really am trying to resist my worst ever-present buy-now impulses ...

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Thanks, all, as always.

MUSSBERGER

Yes, I was it's caretaker from 2000 to 2005 or so. On my watch.....motor,trans,new half shafts w/CVs, and Boxster brake upgrade were the big ones. I'd love to have it back but I don't have the room plus the wife is getting a new kitchen at the moment.

KILRWAIL

All these cars have wear items - brake pads & rotors, suspension bushings, clutches, synchronizers, valve guides, etc. Some of them you can inspect visually and are relatively easy to replace. For others - like the guides - you have to rely on a reputable shop to do a compression & leak down test and correctly interpret the results. If the results are good - and done properly - there's no reason to expect head work in the near future, whether it's already been done or not; especially if you're not driving on the edge.

OttawaDave

Hey floete,

I've been watching your search with some interest, as you're basically following a similar route that I did. Given that you're in the north-east, I'd suspect that the your local market may not be in full swing yet after the winter...that said, I can relate entirely to the desire to get your search done and get some deal going as soon as possible - after all, summer is just around the corner.

However, as the other (and much more experienced) folks have indicated, there's no substitute for a good dose of patience. While some say that the selection of good, quality SC/Carreras is limited, I think these cars were produced in enough numbers to take the pressure of your search - afterall, you're not looking for a garage queen, but more of a driver.

I think I may have rushed my selection process a bit, but I had set out a few non-negotiable criteria, since this is my first P-car. The PPI was a must. Absolutely, it cost me a few opportunities on what I'm sure were superior cars, but I just couldn't take the risk of gambling on an unknown commodity. This was all made more critical given that my primary 'shopping grounds' were in the US, or in Toronto, which is a good 4 hours from me, so my ability to really sample a broad range of cars was a bit limited. In the end, I bought my car sight unseen (gasp!) after an independent PPI from a PCA-recommended shop in Ohio, in addition to being able to talk to the owners mechanic, who also happened to the previous owner's mechanic as well. .

In any case, you've engaged a significant number of the more knowledgeable folks on the board, so you're sure to get good, honest advice, which is a huge advantage in my opinion.

Keep digging!

dshepp806

PPI,...PPI,...PPI....by someone in the know,.....

Best to you,

Doyle

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Both Peter and Doyle provide true wisdom here,.....

While patience may or may not be virtuous, its a necessary commodity when buying a used car to prevent the types of surprises that impact the bank account.

floete

Thanks, guys. I think my ultimate goal is just to try to make sure, as best I can, that what I end up is the proverbial $20k car and not, though various blunders and missteps on my part, a kick-my-***-from-here-to-the-graveyard $30k car or worse. Ouch!