912e lunacy -- have I lost my mind?
03-02-2010, 04:54 PM
#31
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It sounds like that car has a nifty motor, and it is apparent that the condition is very good. You are wise to think it over a bit first though. This is a car that can have a lot of emotional baggage.
The long-hood 912s had a motor very similar to what was in the 356 C – definitely descended from a VW motor, but thoroughly re-worked over the years to the point where it was very much “Porsche”. A stock 912E has a very plain Jane type 4 motor, which I can only feel is a let down. Now this car has the Raby motor, which sounds like it will be an order of magnitude more lively and interesting. What you have now is a hot rod (I guess). The valuation is trickier to assess now. An all-original 912E, while slow, does have some quasi-collectible value and there is a small, but existent market for them. This car is something a little harder to define and market liquidity may not be there when you go to sell (and you have to imagine you will sell, most of us eventually do…)
Drive this car and then drive a decent SC or Carrera. Get it onto an open stretch of road and just let the rpms climb past 5000. When I did that with my Carrera, I knew right then that I LOVED that car. The sound alone was enough for me. When you open up the engine cover on a 911 and gaze down at the mechanical marvel that the flat six is, you know that it is the stuff of dreams.
But again, it is an emotional decision and my thinking may be irrelevant for you, just offering it up for consideration. I know I would always be thinking that I didn’t get a 911 instead.
However, if this were long hood 912 I’d be singing a different tune.
Also, I agree with Whalebird: This could be an interesting car as part of a collection, but if you are looking for one car to enjoy a bit of what Porsche is all about...
The long-hood 912s had a motor very similar to what was in the 356 C – definitely descended from a VW motor, but thoroughly re-worked over the years to the point where it was very much “Porsche”. A stock 912E has a very plain Jane type 4 motor, which I can only feel is a let down. Now this car has the Raby motor, which sounds like it will be an order of magnitude more lively and interesting. What you have now is a hot rod (I guess). The valuation is trickier to assess now. An all-original 912E, while slow, does have some quasi-collectible value and there is a small, but existent market for them. This car is something a little harder to define and market liquidity may not be there when you go to sell (and you have to imagine you will sell, most of us eventually do…)
Drive this car and then drive a decent SC or Carrera. Get it onto an open stretch of road and just let the rpms climb past 5000. When I did that with my Carrera, I knew right then that I LOVED that car. The sound alone was enough for me. When you open up the engine cover on a 911 and gaze down at the mechanical marvel that the flat six is, you know that it is the stuff of dreams.
But again, it is an emotional decision and my thinking may be irrelevant for you, just offering it up for consideration. I know I would always be thinking that I didn’t get a 911 instead.
However, if this were long hood 912 I’d be singing a different tune.
Also, I agree with Whalebird: This could be an interesting car as part of a collection, but if you are looking for one car to enjoy a bit of what Porsche is all about...
03-02-2010, 04:59 PM
#32
floete, I don't think anybody is doubting the quality of work put into that restoration. It's a beautiful car. Are you looking for actual opinions or just looking for somebody to reassure you that you "should" buy the E?
If that's what makes you happy, go for it. I think the general consensus around here is that you can buy a "better" car for the same amount of money, if not less....then again, you're on the 911 forum.
If that's what makes you happy, go for it. I think the general consensus around here is that you can buy a "better" car for the same amount of money, if not less....then again, you're on the 911 forum.
03-02-2010, 05:26 PM
#33
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You'll be SOOORRRRYYY!. They go around corners, but not quickly. or I should say, they go around corners quickly, but take a long time getting to the next one. The only way I would by one is if were a collector & the car was collectible.
03-02-2010, 05:46 PM
#34
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amjf008: thank you for your reply. it's very helpful to me as i struggle to fight my way through the fog of, yes, what is turning out to be a very emotional decision-making process.
As it happens, there are currently three other cars on my radar:
-- an 80 SC w/ 200k miles on it, in A+ condition, with all upgrades done, at @ $12.5k after delivery and PPI.
-- an 84 with 178k on it, with a possible top-end rebuild in its future (or not), at $12k or so.
-- and a Carrera with 149k on it that I might be able to get for 12.5k after delivery and PPI.
I'm guessing the consensus here would that any of those 3 would be better for a first-time Porsche owner than the E. And I am beginning to see your point.
Last edited by floete; 03-02-2010 at 06:03 PM.
03-02-2010, 06:33 PM
#35
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"I am still on the fence."
First, I'd do what needed to be done to get off the fence when it comes to Porsches. That means taking time to drive a bunch of 'em & learn from owner's & mechanics' experience. Accumulating $ & technical knowledge will only improve decision-making. Eventually, you'll climb off the fence & into a car with a clear heart & mind. Never "buy the deal" or allow lust to rule.
as an aside...
Many yrs ago, a very close friend (God rest his soul), an industrial designer & committed Porsche enthusiast, had a 912E. I liked it & what it represented (I have genuine respect for the "real Porsches have 4cyl" pov) - balanced, efficient, solid-as-a-tank, unique. Considering that the 912E was a 1 yr gap-filler for PAG, impressive. A Raby motor can address the perf issues (he's the real deal... a "Smokey Yunick" type of natural tuner). Flash to a month ago, a friend who is a PCA DE instructor & has owned very many Porsches (currently including a GT3), drove a "real" 912 w/ a Raby motor (approx 200hp, iirc) that was very highly tuned for excellent handling ($$$... lotsa 911 susp & autocross upgrades, I imagine)... he said it was one of the very best handling Porsches he has ever driven & plenty quick up to 100mph (downside was the lack of tto). My take-away is that proper integration of really good stuff works (did I mention $$$?).
aside #2...
my distant view says you would be best served by a 911 that is mechanically solid, but is in your budget 'cause of appearance issues (worn paint, etc). when you are driving these things "con brio", you can't see the exterior, & you shouldn't be paying too much attention to the interior, either. whatever, save $ for surprises, because that is the nature of buying an old hi perf sports car.
aside #3...
When I was in a position to buy my first nice car, I wanted a BMW 3.0CSi (had just gone out of production). But they were still bringing strong $ & in talking myself into stepping up to the price-point, I realized I was not that far away from affording a clapped-out '60's Ferrari V12. Given my career-travel situation at the time, & what I knew about caring for a used Ferrari (I wasn't a drug dealer), I realized I was losing my compass (mind). So I "got real" & contemplated just getting a Honda Accord (hot efficient new car de jour) to tide me over... but the dealers were loading up on price due to demand & I couldn't stomach paying a premium for a Japanese car... Then I stumbled upon a screaming deal on a brand new Alfetta GT for $5995, I "had my cake & ate it too"... that lead to lotsa Alfas over the yrs... Lesson? not sure, but after many Alfas, no remorse.
First, I'd do what needed to be done to get off the fence when it comes to Porsches. That means taking time to drive a bunch of 'em & learn from owner's & mechanics' experience. Accumulating $ & technical knowledge will only improve decision-making. Eventually, you'll climb off the fence & into a car with a clear heart & mind. Never "buy the deal" or allow lust to rule.
as an aside...
Many yrs ago, a very close friend (God rest his soul), an industrial designer & committed Porsche enthusiast, had a 912E. I liked it & what it represented (I have genuine respect for the "real Porsches have 4cyl" pov) - balanced, efficient, solid-as-a-tank, unique. Considering that the 912E was a 1 yr gap-filler for PAG, impressive. A Raby motor can address the perf issues (he's the real deal... a "Smokey Yunick" type of natural tuner). Flash to a month ago, a friend who is a PCA DE instructor & has owned very many Porsches (currently including a GT3), drove a "real" 912 w/ a Raby motor (approx 200hp, iirc) that was very highly tuned for excellent handling ($$$... lotsa 911 susp & autocross upgrades, I imagine)... he said it was one of the very best handling Porsches he has ever driven & plenty quick up to 100mph (downside was the lack of tto). My take-away is that proper integration of really good stuff works (did I mention $$$?).
aside #2...
my distant view says you would be best served by a 911 that is mechanically solid, but is in your budget 'cause of appearance issues (worn paint, etc). when you are driving these things "con brio", you can't see the exterior, & you shouldn't be paying too much attention to the interior, either. whatever, save $ for surprises, because that is the nature of buying an old hi perf sports car.
aside #3...
When I was in a position to buy my first nice car, I wanted a BMW 3.0CSi (had just gone out of production). But they were still bringing strong $ & in talking myself into stepping up to the price-point, I realized I was not that far away from affording a clapped-out '60's Ferrari V12. Given my career-travel situation at the time, & what I knew about caring for a used Ferrari (I wasn't a drug dealer), I realized I was losing my compass (mind). So I "got real" & contemplated just getting a Honda Accord (hot efficient new car de jour) to tide me over... but the dealers were loading up on price due to demand & I couldn't stomach paying a premium for a Japanese car... Then I stumbled upon a screaming deal on a brand new Alfetta GT for $5995, I "had my cake & ate it too"... that lead to lotsa Alfas over the yrs... Lesson? not sure, but after many Alfas, no remorse.
03-02-2010, 06:46 PM
#36
Nordschleife Master
floete,
While you told us a lot about the car, which is good, we know virtually nothing about you. Unless you've had a couple of threads like this that I've missed, we know nothing about what Porsche ownership means to you. Why do you want the car? How to do you intend to use it?
If you read my earlier post, I had lots of little things about why the car worked for me. It was a great little run around car that I could drive whereever and whenever. But it's not something I would have wanted to take to the track if I wanted to go fast. While it can hold it's own on a curvy backcountry road, it would take a lot to make one of them what I consider a good DE car for example.
If there's tracks and racing in your future, you will want to look at 911SCs. If you like going to Cars-N-Coffee events and rolling up in a cool shiny little P-car and maybe want to do some concours stuff, maybe the 912e is exactly what you want.
What I am getting at here is you've got to figure out (maybe you already have) what your expectation of Porsche ownership is. I can't tell you if you'd like this car or not because I don't know what you like. But as was mentioned above drive as many as you can possibly sample before you pull the trigger.
Growing up I never had any interest in a 911 targa. I always wanted a coupe. My first 911 was a 1970 911t targa because one feel into my lap at a price I couldn't pass up. I loved taking the top off that little car. If I had judged the car purely on my preconceptions I would have never given it a chance. Porsches need to be experienced to figure out what works for you. Even if this car is 1000 miles away from you, you've got to drive it before you make up your mind. A plane ticket home is way cheaper than spending months trying to get out of a car that was a bad buy, for you.
While you told us a lot about the car, which is good, we know virtually nothing about you. Unless you've had a couple of threads like this that I've missed, we know nothing about what Porsche ownership means to you. Why do you want the car? How to do you intend to use it?
If you read my earlier post, I had lots of little things about why the car worked for me. It was a great little run around car that I could drive whereever and whenever. But it's not something I would have wanted to take to the track if I wanted to go fast. While it can hold it's own on a curvy backcountry road, it would take a lot to make one of them what I consider a good DE car for example.
If there's tracks and racing in your future, you will want to look at 911SCs. If you like going to Cars-N-Coffee events and rolling up in a cool shiny little P-car and maybe want to do some concours stuff, maybe the 912e is exactly what you want.
What I am getting at here is you've got to figure out (maybe you already have) what your expectation of Porsche ownership is. I can't tell you if you'd like this car or not because I don't know what you like. But as was mentioned above drive as many as you can possibly sample before you pull the trigger.
Growing up I never had any interest in a 911 targa. I always wanted a coupe. My first 911 was a 1970 911t targa because one feel into my lap at a price I couldn't pass up. I loved taking the top off that little car. If I had judged the car purely on my preconceptions I would have never given it a chance. Porsches need to be experienced to figure out what works for you. Even if this car is 1000 miles away from you, you've got to drive it before you make up your mind. A plane ticket home is way cheaper than spending months trying to get out of a car that was a bad buy, for you.
03-02-2010, 06:47 PM
#37
Car looks really nice.
Not to make your choice harder...Don't forget that you have posted your question on a 911 site.
You may get a slightly different response posting over on the 912 Registry site http://912bbs.org/ Great group of people that helped me step, by step through a lot of projects,
Have a '68 912 (different engine and body than 912e) and I LOVE IT, but it is a weekend / fair weather / fun driver. My first Porsche... couldn't afford a '73 911S nor a 356 convertible that I wanted. It will be the last Porsche I sell.
After 3 years bought the 3.2 last summer as I wanted to start learning DE and auto cross ...flat six HP/torque make a difference! WOW what a different car. Happy at speeds that I wouldn't drive the 912 at, and after 3 years of restoration didn't want to start tracking the 912.
Some of the 912e parts are NLA but seems like the owners are tight and get by and work with the VW guys.
The 912e looks nice but I think you are set on a 911 so keep looking.
Not to make your choice harder...Don't forget that you have posted your question on a 911 site.
You may get a slightly different response posting over on the 912 Registry site http://912bbs.org/ Great group of people that helped me step, by step through a lot of projects,
Have a '68 912 (different engine and body than 912e) and I LOVE IT, but it is a weekend / fair weather / fun driver. My first Porsche... couldn't afford a '73 911S nor a 356 convertible that I wanted. It will be the last Porsche I sell.
After 3 years bought the 3.2 last summer as I wanted to start learning DE and auto cross ...flat six HP/torque make a difference! WOW what a different car. Happy at speeds that I wouldn't drive the 912 at, and after 3 years of restoration didn't want to start tracking the 912.
Some of the 912e parts are NLA but seems like the owners are tight and get by and work with the VW guys.
The 912e looks nice but I think you are set on a 911 so keep looking.
03-02-2010, 08:54 PM
#38
Another philosophical persepective... Whatever you buy will have a good chance of being the wrong car. As GTgears was getting at, Porsche ownership, at least for an enthusiast, has many facets of experience. If you haven't owned one, yet, and been exposed to those multiple facets, you don't really know what you want. There's track, concours, social events, technical events, backcountry runs, restoration, commuting, and, of course, grocery getting. You may think you know what you want to do with your Porsche, but until you've been immersed you don't really know. Where am I headed with this? That one shouldn't agonize over things too much because the first one probably isn't going to be the right one no matter how good your intentions. The first one is just a stepping stone to let you figure out exactly what you want out of the Porsche experience. Once you figure that out, the second one can be the one, but then there's the third...
In my own experience, I bought a Boxster new (my first Porsche) that I was going to keep forever, then I discovered concours events and desired a showy kind of car. A plain Jane Boxster wasn't it, so I sold the Boxster and went shopping. I found my 1978 911SC (#2) in very unique continental orange/lobster colors and brought it up to concours condition. This was the 911 that as a kid, I always wanted. I have had a great time showing the car. Then a couple years ago, I bought my neighbor's '64 356C coupe (#3) for a restoration project. I had never heard of the 356 until I bought the Boxster and began my Porsche "education." I still never had a desire for one, until I drove behind one on a backcountry tour. I was all bummed out to start out behind the 356 (driven by a lady, too) because I was certain she would be a buzz kill. Boy was I wrong. That thing carved corners beautifully with the rest of us and kept pretty good pace. It was an epiphany for me, and I had to have one from that moment. I've also come to appreciate the value factor of the classic cars. I'm not a track guy, at least not at this time, but that could still be in the cards in the future, if someone drags me out to an event and I get hooked. Porsche #4 may follow. Who knows?
How many people here have owned only one Porsche? I think the number will be very low. Don't sweat the first one. You'll be selling it in a couple of years anyway.
At least by starting with an older depreciated car, you won't lose you shirt on your first one like I did.
Brett
In my own experience, I bought a Boxster new (my first Porsche) that I was going to keep forever, then I discovered concours events and desired a showy kind of car. A plain Jane Boxster wasn't it, so I sold the Boxster and went shopping. I found my 1978 911SC (#2) in very unique continental orange/lobster colors and brought it up to concours condition. This was the 911 that as a kid, I always wanted. I have had a great time showing the car. Then a couple years ago, I bought my neighbor's '64 356C coupe (#3) for a restoration project. I had never heard of the 356 until I bought the Boxster and began my Porsche "education." I still never had a desire for one, until I drove behind one on a backcountry tour. I was all bummed out to start out behind the 356 (driven by a lady, too) because I was certain she would be a buzz kill. Boy was I wrong. That thing carved corners beautifully with the rest of us and kept pretty good pace. It was an epiphany for me, and I had to have one from that moment. I've also come to appreciate the value factor of the classic cars. I'm not a track guy, at least not at this time, but that could still be in the cards in the future, if someone drags me out to an event and I get hooked. Porsche #4 may follow. Who knows?
How many people here have owned only one Porsche? I think the number will be very low. Don't sweat the first one. You'll be selling it in a couple of years anyway.
At least by starting with an older depreciated car, you won't lose you shirt on your first one like I did.Brett
03-02-2010, 11:57 PM
#39
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I'd say go for it......for a 2nd or 3rd or 4th P-car. Not your first. Many look for any way they can to make a 911 go faster. With a 912, how don't care how "big" the motor is or how new, you're starting with a deficit, and sometime soon, will be wondering how much faster or powerful a 911 is.
03-03-2010, 12:06 AM
#40
Burning Brakes
[
How many people here have owned only one Porsche? I think the number will be very low. Don't sweat the first one. You'll be selling it in a couple of years anyway. At least by starting with an older depreciated car, you won't lose you shirt on your first one like I did.
Brett[/QUOTE]
I also believe that each car has it's own great qualities. The 928 is a car that I can drive very long distances and the wife is very comfortable. The power is there when I need it. It is great for crusing up Scenic Highway 1 to Monterey. The 912E is a good daily driver that has surprising get up and go, and is very dependable, and is well balanced. Also nearly 600+ miles on a tank of gas.
Floete - I'd still recommend the 911 in your particular scenario of $14K and a car that will give you no regrets, if you choose wisely....+1 The 911 forum similar to the 928 forum is very active on RL, not so much for the 912 forum....
Best of luck - Porsche there is no substitute!
'89 928S4 GP White/Black
'76 912E Silver/Black sunroof
How many people here have owned only one Porsche? I think the number will be very low. Don't sweat the first one. You'll be selling it in a couple of years anyway.
At least by starting with an older depreciated car, you won't lose you shirt on your first one like I did.Brett[/QUOTE]
I also believe that each car has it's own great qualities. The 928 is a car that I can drive very long distances and the wife is very comfortable. The power is there when I need it. It is great for crusing up Scenic Highway 1 to Monterey. The 912E is a good daily driver that has surprising get up and go, and is very dependable, and is well balanced. Also nearly 600+ miles on a tank of gas.
Floete - I'd still recommend the 911 in your particular scenario of $14K and a car that will give you no regrets, if you choose wisely....+1 The 911 forum similar to the 928 forum is very active on RL, not so much for the 912 forum....
Best of luck - Porsche there is no substitute!
'89 928S4 GP White/Black
'76 912E Silver/Black sunroof
03-03-2010, 12:24 AM
#42
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one's first Porsche is very important, one way or another.
(still got mine... from '84)
"...wondering how much faster or powerful a 911 is."
that kinda thinking will land ya in a 930, Ed.
& Brett, this one's for you...
(still got mine... from '84)
"...wondering how much faster or powerful a 911 is."
that kinda thinking will land ya in a 930, Ed.
& Brett, this one's for you...
03-03-2010, 01:21 AM
#43
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Am I the only one who looked at that lengthy list and find most of that stuff necessary to any 25+ year old car?? Those are not "perks" as much as they are maintenance items found in any cared-for 911.
I stand by my last statement: not worth it. That price is squarely in 911 territory: not pristine, but certainly sound. And given the small delta in price versus significant delta in performance (not to mention resale, yes resale when you fall in love with another 911), this 912 just doesn't cut it.
Edward
I stand by my last statement: not worth it. That price is squarely in 911 territory: not pristine, but certainly sound. And given the small delta in price versus significant delta in performance (not to mention resale, yes resale when you fall in love with another 911), this 912 just doesn't cut it.
Edward
03-03-2010, 02:22 AM
#45
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Ultimately, I guess with reading what our poster is also considering, I'm seeing how spoiled we are here in the Bay Area. Just picking one out of a hat on Craigslist now, since it's within a few miles of me: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/1623446459.html
I'd call that a good $8-9K starter car. Will you have a lot more into it when you're "done"? Sure. But if you don't have the ~$20K to find a lower mile example, some sweat equity is the best you'll do. Personally, I'm seeing so many 964's show up in the sub-$15K range now I'd probably take a chance on finding a decent one of those.
I'd call that a good $8-9K starter car. Will you have a lot more into it when you're "done"? Sure. But if you don't have the ~$20K to find a lower mile example, some sweat equity is the best you'll do. Personally, I'm seeing so many 964's show up in the sub-$15K range now I'd probably take a chance on finding a decent one of those.