AGW911

floete - On that 85, I can understand the crinkled bumper, easy to replace. But what is with the "lowered the car a small amount"? Sounds like it was a good one to walk away from. Sounds like something structural got bent.

I have to say that I am benefiting greatly from these discussions. Not having ready access to a phone over here it is hard to call and speak to sellers. Email just doesn't cut it for the most part. I am sure there are lots of people benefiting from these discussions.

I should hear back from Rick on the 84 today. If all is well it PPI time!!! I don't mind a bit of wrenching, so at least I can avoid labour costs in most cases.

floete

My fingers are crossed for you. It's one sweet looking car. Let us know how it turns out!

Daniel Dudley

Floete, remember one thing. A Porsche is about the drive. Get one you love to drive, that is a good drive.

whalebird

If I understand correctly, the 85 had wrinkles at the top of the rear fender arches? thats bad. Good pass. I really like the SC from the photos. This is strictly my opinion, but, I really like white coupes. Classy from all angles. The later cars with black trim seem to look good in white with black Fuchs.
That car looks properly lowered to, maybe, euro ride height. Brown interior has not aged well, but is not that bad, especially for your first car. Things like mirrors, inside/outside trim, detail, etc are where you want to compramise. A solid chassis(no collisions), and properly maintained and repaired drivetrain are what you're after. I'm glad to hear that your talking to and meeting some of the shops in your area. This will be the most critical part of ownership short of making the right purchase. You need a good shop for support, parts, repairs and most importantly, those brutally honest opinions. When a trusted wrench talks - listen. Your getting close Floete, you've covered a lot of ground, at least in this forum, and take BRB-83-911SC up on his offer, a cold beverage might be in order as well.
keep us posted.

floete

Thanks for the suggestions on where to compromise. makes sense to me!

But, well, look at this dash on the white SC. It's shot. I think I looked into replacement dashes for another car and, with labor, it's like a $1000 job. And are dashes this color even readily available? Truthfully, I could throw a rug on it and live with it but it'd sure hurt the resale potential down the road. Thoughts?

whalebird

IIRC, only black dashes are available. To do it right, you want to remove the windshield, and then you may as well do a headliner....all part of a cosmetic restoration. I would not focus on the dash. Most cars in your price range are going to have a less-than-perfect dash. Looks like an aftermarket compressor(AC), not a big problem. Possibly a recent distributor rebuild, at least a vacuum dashpot. Have good PPI done and, If good, I think you will have a good idea of where a fair price on this car will be.

floete

okay, thanks, i won't focus on the dash. it's just cosmetic.

but let me ask you this. so far the way i've doing it with price is, i've been talking to the owner and talking to the mechanic, and from that gotten a price i could live with. after that is when i think it makes most sense to do a PPI, and then once again maybe adjust the price based on the findings.

you don't do it that way?

ked

Negotiating strategies are never perfect - individuals react in non-linear ways that can't be predicted. Pre-PPI an owner may not feel the need to lower his asking price. Post-PPI one might withdraw it from the mkt - how can you know?

YOUR parameters can be known, though. If it passes w/ flying colors, will you pay the asking price? If so, cut a deal based upon that contingency. If you want to squeeze out every last $, ask the seller if he is flexible, willing to deal on his price (but don't get into specific $s). Then you know if there may be some room at closing. If it clears PPI, you can still negotiate. If issues are revealed, but they are managable & you still want the car, & the seller already stated his flexibility, then you are in an even stronger negotiating position.

White 911s are aok in my book - after all, white was the original German racing color. Porsche factory racing cars almost always came out in body-in-white. The dash is the last thing you need to spend $s on in a new acquisition that you've stretched to purchase. A 28 yr old 911 that has never had an accident or been repainted, is at under 100k mi (hope there are records confirming...) is uncommon. With solid mechanicals & regular maint / repair, you just might've found a keeper... & after long-time ownership, what's a few hundred / a few thou? Have fun!

whalebird

Ked is right as rain. This all seems to pivot on a quality PPI so be sure to get a good one from a highly qualified shop. There will be things revealed in a PPI. In fact I did PPIs and I can assure you that a car was never on my lift that I couldn't find an issue with. Mostly minor, some problems were glaring, from brake pads to bondo. There were some cars that were perfect except for say...a cracked AC vent. So, get a conclusive PPI with the idea that the obvious issues are just that and mostly beyond negotiation i.e. paint scratches, needs tires, etc. After this, it is most prudent to make a fair offer without insulting the seller; and a forthright seller will offer a fair concession. The number will be clear when all the cards are on the table and usually a conscientious sellar, and an informed buyer, will have the same figure in their head's upon closing.
I do like a white coupe FWIW.

floete

I've been thinking about this fair price / ppi thing and here's my current thinking -- that it only makes sense to get a PPI if the price before you get the PPI reflects exactly, more or less, the price you would be willing to pay should the PPI come back pretty perfect. In other words, if an owner is asking, say, 15.5k for a car but fair market value for that particular car is only 14k, it wouldn't make sense to get a PPI with the pre-PPI price at anything other than @ 14k. Right?

So, then, what is the pre-PPI value of a car? It's not what the seller says it is. It's what you would pay for the car given its *known* condition right now, in a pre-PPI world, adjusted for intangibles you like about the car, as well as those you don't like about the car, and adjusted, as well, for any horse-trading tactics you might want to employ to give yourself some negotiating room.

In the case of the car I'm looking at now the asking is $14.5. My question to my betters is this. Leaving out the intangibles and the horse-trading, is that a fair price for the car in its currently stated condition? I tend to think that the owner has placed at least a small premium on the low-miles situation (95K) and the fact that he's driven it only a small number of miles during his ownership. Well, it's my understanding that, in fact, I should be deducting for those things, that the SC is a car that likes to be driven and that sitting as a garage queen does more harm than good. The owner might not agree with me, but in terms of strategic planning, I shouldn't let that affect my thinking (except to the extent that the car is so alluring that I've got to have it at any cost; and this car does not fall into that catagory for me).

What do you think? And what would you pay for this car, right now, today, given a stellar PPI?

whalebird

Floete, I think your starting to see the market on 911s. There is a lot of emotion involved. One important angle to keep in mind is that a 911 is bought and sold on potential, not just the immediate condition. Some people will pay large amounts of money for a rusty lump just for the VIN number. Like real estate, I think a fair gauge is to find like models in a range of prices. Also, there are regional differances across the country, in price that is. It's always a good idea to search outside your imediate region and be willing to travel.

M491

you have the PPI situation down right. You make an offer on the car, subject to a PPI to your satisfaction.

After the PPI, you can do whatever you want. You can go ahead and buy the car for your agreed amount, you can walk, or you can try and strike a new deal based on what was found. Up to you, you won't know what to do until after the PPI.

As far as that particular car? First, the "typical 911SC problems shifting into second" is total BS. The 915 doesn't have a "typical" problem shifting into second, if it is in good condition. If that one doesn't shift into second easily, the reason is almost certainly a worn second gear synchro. To fix that, you need to pull the engine and trans out, take the trans apart and see what's up.

I'd count on $1500-$2K to replace the second gear syncro and reasonably refresh whatever else needs refreshing in the trans (assuming you take the trans out yourself).

The dash cracks are also going to make the car hard to sell.

IMO, that car after a PPI is going to turn out to be a roughly $10-$11K car.

whalebird

A cracked dash and sticky second gear syncro....perfect. 10.5K sold. If thats the worst of it in an otherwisw straight car, Your doing good. I did years of daily driving and track time in an 81SC with a crappy second gear synchro. You don't shift a 915 like a Miata when it's new. Each one is different and women driven 915s are prone to this(no offence). Easily fixed if it is a real problem.

floete

The seller won't move off of $12.5k. You still a buyer at that price, Whalebird?

BTW, since I've been thinking about valve jobs recently, I wrote the seller about his engine. He wrote back, "The engine runs too strong to have any problems- Most likely a top end was done when the 3400.00 major overhaul was done." The troubling phrase is, of course, "most likely." If it was done, it was done by a previous owner. He thought he had the records, but now he can't find them.

I tried several times to get in touch with his mechanic but he doesn't return calls. The seller's explanation: "***** is having wife problems."

Still a buyer?

whalebird

Depends on the PPI. No collision damage, good (preferably original) paint, fair history trail of owners and records, Carrera tensioners?, I could be motivated.
As I have said. At this lower price bracket, I like to see a car that is original as possible. Crappy original paint, non-working original stereo, weatherd wheels, these are the cars to have.