Martin Schweter

Hello,

I own and passionately drive a 2.7 liter 911 for almost eight years. The car is still running on its first engine and gearbox and although its total mileage is about 240.000 kms (approx. 150.000 miles) it's still good for the occasional heat on the Hockenheimring. The engine still feels and sounds healthy, consumes little fuel but looses way too much oil at almost any seal (which is neither nice for the environment nor for my purse). That's why I decided to rebuild the engine this coming winter and I'm determined to do it on my own, at least the disassembling and reassembling job. I'm not a mecanic but I'm usually doing some minor works on my own so I'm very confident that I'll get it done.

I already collected some literature and screened the rennlist-entries on this topic but I'd like to get useful information from people who did the job. I'd like to get practical information not only on the basic stuff but also on the unexpected things that may happen.

Also I'd like to know whether someone has experience in upgrading a 2.7 (165 hp; K-Jetronic) to 2.8 or 2.9 with a new set of pistons and cylinders. What else has to be (can be) changed to make the engine more powerful (how about the cylinder heads or the HKZ-ignition unit)?

I'd also be glad to receive any recommendation on additional works that make sense when the engine and gearbox are already removed from the car.

Martin


Mannheim / Germany
1977 911 2.7 Targa (european model)

Bill Gregory

Martin,

You should read Bruce Anderson's "Porsche 911 Performance Handbook", as he has alot of useful information on engine rebuilding. If I were going to rebuild my own engine, I'd want to have the factory manuals too.

RoninLB

I'm with Bill on using the factory manual..I needed the 1st set..I did my 2.7 with every upgrade possible for a strong street and occasional DE engine..the BS we read about the rebuilt 2.7's is, IMHO, because they were not rebuilt correctly..I used Competition Engineering in Bodfish, Calif.for the machine work..they really spend the time to fully answer your questions when you are doing the rebuild..IMO, read BA book then discuss your needs with Walt at CE..he will probably talk you out of some machine work that you don't need for a street engine....Ron

sprbxr

Why not upgrade to a 3.0L SC engine? I am sure you could find a decent used engine for a reasonable price. It is a better engine and will last many miles if care is taken.

Justin
80 930
73 911

Martin Schweter

Thank you guys.
I think I'll try to get the factory manuals first. Replacing my original 2.7 engine with a 3.0 is out of question. The car is 100% to original specs. So I'd rather buy a complete Carrera 3.0 for everyday usage. I'm pretty sure that I'll find a specialized (and competent) enterprise here in Germany for the necessary work on the engine parts. What's in your opinion the best remedy for the cylinder head studs problem?

Martin

1977 911 2.7

Avenger6

Check with the guys down at RUF. Many people don't know that they do a lot of maintenance and restoration work on "normal" (non-RUF) cars. When I last visited them, they had more older (10+ years) Porsches around the shop than I had ever seen in one place in Germany. They can surely do a right nice job on your 2.7. I don't have contact info, but shouldn't be hard to find.

jlkline

Timecerts with Raceware studs seem to be a popular and reliable fix for the 2.7 stud problem. I went with the new style, steel, factory studs on my 3.0 (now 3.2)

That said, there are lots of other mods needed for the 2.7 case including line boring and other stuff that can be found in the B.A. performance book referenced. Just keep in mind that even with all of the fixes done exactly as specified, you may not be completely happy with the result. The mag cases are notorious for warping and flexing and are highly prone to leaks, which will nearly certainly reappear shortly after a rebuild.

While it is understandable to want to keep everything original, be sure your expectations of the results are set accordingly.

I hope I don't get flamed from to many of you 2.7 owners out there , but hey, Ive been there.

Martin Schweter

Thanks for the newest information, especially for the RUF hint. I think I'm going to take my car down there to have it checked. The oil leaking problem of the magnesium engine is known to me. A friend of mine had his 2.7 Carrera engine rebuilt at Freisinger Motorsport here in southern Germany and it started to leak again right from day one on. Nevertheless, I'm going to keep the 2.7 engine as in my eyes the car is loosing it's value with a 3.0 / 3.2 liter engine. With an engine change its becoming just one of the many modified 911 that are available at any street corner. But try to find a really sound and non-modified 1976/77 2.7; by now it's already quite difficult.

Martin

911 2.7 1977

jlkline

Are the older, orginal 911's really becoming more valuable in Germany? Here they go from 6 to 11 thousand $.


You could always just keep the original 2.7 engine in the garage and buy a complete 3.0 or 3.2 to drive. I think its pretty much a straight plug in for the 3.0 (no car mods required)

That way you'll still have the possibility for the originality you are looking for, but will also have a better car to drive AND a more attractive resale of the car because the buyer can make the choice of orginal vs reliable himself.

You'll also end up with a faster car, because the 2.7 year model bodies were lighter than the SC and Carrera models.

Just imaging paying 8000 Euros for a rebuild, only to have oil leak onto you heat exchangers, creating a smoking 911 2 days later.

My last .02 on the subject

Avenger6

Martin - Be sure to let me know what the boys down at RUF tell you. I also have a 2.7 liter engine in my '75 911S. My car is no longer stock (Mostly SC body mods and new paint - I can send pics next week if you are interested), but the engine is still running strong with over 100k. This engine breaks the the dire reputation of 2.7s.

I expect to be transferred back to Germany early next year, and I am debating whether to take the car along this time. It is a non-galvanized car, which is a huge strike against me taking it to Germany, with its moist climate. But, a vote for it would be having an engine rebuild done by RUF...

We were there for a PCA Germany region event a couple of years ago, and Herr Ruf made a point of letting us know about their extensive repair and restoration business for normal Porsches. He said that he charges about the same for standard maintenance work as the VW guys at the other end of town. One of our wise guys quipped "really? That much???"

You'll find Herr Ruf and his team a nice group of people to work with. Good luck.

Bob Spindel

Martin,

I recently rebuilt a '77 engine that I installed in my '73 911. I don't know if the European cars had the so-called emission reducing thermo exhaust system, but if so, you might want to consider replacing it with the pre-1974 systems. It's a straightforward replacement and will definitely improve performance (as well as longevity--less heat).

Nothing sepcial about the rebuild. The popular wisdom is to install Time-certs and Raceware or dilivar studs, but I confess I did neither. I think if you plan on racing the car, really taxing the engine, then you might want to do this, but if it's basically a street car, it doesn't make sense to me. There are thousands of 2.7's around whose studs are in perfectly good shape.

As for leaks, I'm afraid the chances of there still being a leak or two after the rebuild are all too good. It's very hard to seal those magnesium cases. But in spite of this I am sure you will be less leaky than you are now.

Have fun.

Bob

Martin Schweter

Well, my intention to post the engine rebuild topic here at the forum was not to spark a discussion on the philosophy of driving a 2.7 or a 3.2. I'm pretty sure that the 3.0/3.2 engines are the better ones (after all it would be quite astonishing if the Porsche engineers wouldn't have been able to improve the oil leaking and stud problem when creating the 3.0 engine).

Anyhow, last weekend I talked to a few Porsche guys at a local 356 meeting here in Mannheim. Whomever I was talking to about the issue of rebuilding my engine (at least partly on my own) urged me not even to think of doing it on my own. I'd maybe manage to tear the engine apart but I'd certainly fail to reassemble it. You have to know, they're the sort of guys rebuilding Porsche engines with closed eyes (at least that's what they wanted to make me believe). Finally I came about a guy that's working at a Stuttgart based enterprise specialised at preparing Porsches for racing. He told me the same until he took a brief glimpse at my engine. He told me that my car has already been fitted with the 'new engine case' (whatever that means, at least it's not a magnesium engine) so there would certainly be no need to replace the studs or to fit the case with Helicoil threads. These news were again encouraging me to try doing it on my own. Which brings me back to the initial intention of this topic. Is there anybody who, engine rebuild greenhorn like me, has done the job on his own (of course leaving the machinery work to the specialists).

To respond to your various questions. No, the 1976/77 2.7 are definitely not the best investment around. They're still comparatively cheap, any average turbo-diesel car is outperforming them and they're no eye-catcher but, and that's the point, it's becoming more and more difficult to find a sound sample of a slim-body 2.7 G-model. More and more people are approaching me because of the car and that was definitely not the case eight years ago when I traded it in for a quite lousy 1600 Alfa Spider. In my opinion it's because the tidy and straightforward samples are becoming rare, which is not the case for the thousands of SCs and Carreras built from 1978 onwards.

Hey Raleigh, I got the address of RUF and I should manage to pass by there by the end of this month as I'm having a business date down in Munich. I'll keep you informed about the result, although I'm quite afraid that it wont be the best bargain around. And I'd also like to see a few pics of your car. I can also send you a few shots of mine e.g. from this year's Monte Carlo Rallye.

Thanks Bob for the latest info. This is good news for me. I certainly don't have any emission reduction on my car. I'm thinking about replacing the heat exchangers/exhaust by a '75 Carrera exhaust. But all additonal modifications depend largely on the cost of the basic engine rebuild. What were the items that you replaced on your engine (oil pump? pistons/cylinders? valves?) and what was the overall cost for the parts and tools. By the way, which are the absolutely necessary Porsche tools and which are rather luxury?

Regards, Martin.

911 2.7 1977

HarryD

Hi Martin,

Have you visited the Pelican Board? There are several folks like you who did their own rebuilds will success.

<a href="http://forums.pelicanparts.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=8&daysprune=45&sortorder=&sortfield=lastpost &perpage=35&pagenumber=1" target="_blank">Pelican Parts BBS</a>

jlkline

Martin,

If it isn't a mag case, and has been rebuilt without the original parts, you have already lost the pureness of the originality of the car.

What he may have meant is that it has the strongest of the mag cases, also known as the "7R" cases. If you crawl under the car and look at the sides of the case, you should be able see the part numbers of the case halves, which end in 7R.

If they aren't 7R, and you have a 2.7,they're not original to the car.

Martin Schweter

Hey guys, thanks again for the multiple replies to my topic.

Ok, 'jlkline' I checked the part numbers of the engine cases and they are 7R. It seems you know a lot about the different types of engines so what do you recommend in this case? Do you agree with Bob's opinion that it's not really necessary to have them replaced (as the Stuttgart guy also told me)?

Hello Harry,
no, I don't know Pelican at all (except the bird, of course). It's here on rennlist that I for the first time participate in a web forum. I'm usually not spending much of my sparetime on the internet, so if you could send me a link I'd at least check it out. I also learned from a friend who introduced my to rennlist, that it's highly uncool to post topics using your entire name, like I did. Next time I'll also invent a short expression.

Regards, Martin.

911 2.7 1977