3.2 Carrera - suspension bushes?
08-17-2009, 08:57 AM
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3.2 Carrera - suspension bushes?
Assuming that by now any mid eighties carreras suspension is going to be a bit tired and old, i am thinking that it would be a good move to get all the bushes uprated/replaced for my intended track outings.
Anyone done this fairly recently? Would like an idea of costs and options involved. Also if it is a home DIY project or has to be taken to a workshop ?
Would the geometry need re-setting after a job like that or straightforward swap?
Am thinking of getting Bilstein damper inserts too so could be a good opportunity to get all done at same time with a full re-alignment afterwards.
Its a bit quiet on this forum compared to the 964 one !
Anyone done this fairly recently? Would like an idea of costs and options involved. Also if it is a home DIY project or has to be taken to a workshop ?
Would the geometry need re-setting after a job like that or straightforward swap?
Am thinking of getting Bilstein damper inserts too so could be a good opportunity to get all done at same time with a full re-alignment afterwards.
Its a bit quiet on this forum compared to the 964 one !
08-17-2009, 10:53 AM
#2
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Hi Mark,
I am at a similar point. Actually, I had hoped to have already re-done the rear end but an unanticipated suspension pan replacement project has set that all back!
Anyway, I think you are right that the bushings are well-due for replacement. Up front, the lower control arms have two rubber bushings each. In addition to this are the sway bar bushings. To do a complete front end rebuild, you also may want to consider the ball joints and tie rods (the so-called "Turbo" tie rods from the 930 are a popular upgrade). For the control arm bushings, there are three main choices:
1) Elephant racing "polybronze" - very nice in all respects. Do need regular lubrication, but that is all.
2) OE rubber - there are some alternatives here, but Elephant racing (again) supplies the best ones IMO.
3) Hard plastic types (Weltmeister polygraphite): The least expensive - they have the solid precision of the the polybronzes, but do need to be sized, can be harsh and can squeak.
On the rear, there are two massive rubber bushings on the springplates that interface with the torsion bar. The material choices are the same as the three mentioned above.
There are also bushes on the semi-trailing arms, the choices there are OEM (good) or various mono-***** including ERs sealed units.
Often people will stiffen the torsion bars (i.e. replace with larger diameter), but this depends a lot on your intended usage. However, it is important to examine the front bars, since if the bushings have "squashed" enough, there may have been metal-to-metal contact on the bar (near the splines) which will have left a groove, which can eventually be a failure point.
You will need to do a full alignment after replacing bushings.
ERs site:
http://www.elephantracing.com/
I am at a similar point. Actually, I had hoped to have already re-done the rear end but an unanticipated suspension pan replacement project has set that all back!
Anyway, I think you are right that the bushings are well-due for replacement. Up front, the lower control arms have two rubber bushings each. In addition to this are the sway bar bushings. To do a complete front end rebuild, you also may want to consider the ball joints and tie rods (the so-called "Turbo" tie rods from the 930 are a popular upgrade). For the control arm bushings, there are three main choices:
1) Elephant racing "polybronze" - very nice in all respects. Do need regular lubrication, but that is all.
2) OE rubber - there are some alternatives here, but Elephant racing (again) supplies the best ones IMO.
3) Hard plastic types (Weltmeister polygraphite): The least expensive - they have the solid precision of the the polybronzes, but do need to be sized, can be harsh and can squeak.
On the rear, there are two massive rubber bushings on the springplates that interface with the torsion bar. The material choices are the same as the three mentioned above.
There are also bushes on the semi-trailing arms, the choices there are OEM (good) or various mono-***** including ERs sealed units.
Often people will stiffen the torsion bars (i.e. replace with larger diameter), but this depends a lot on your intended usage. However, it is important to examine the front bars, since if the bushings have "squashed" enough, there may have been metal-to-metal contact on the bar (near the splines) which will have left a groove, which can eventually be a failure point.
You will need to do a full alignment after replacing bushings.
ERs site:
http://www.elephantracing.com/
08-17-2009, 12:39 PM
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thanks amjf, sounds like a fair bit of work ! When i pick the car up i will jack it up and have a good nose around underneath.
I noticed that the anti-roll bars (sway bars) were beefed up a couple of times in later 80's incarnations. I guess that means a good upgrade would be to obtain later bars and put new bushes on them?
What sort of cost are the 930 type torsion bars? Are they just beefed up for strength or do they aid body rigidity/roll or weigh less etc ?
I noticed that the anti-roll bars (sway bars) were beefed up a couple of times in later 80's incarnations. I guess that means a good upgrade would be to obtain later bars and put new bushes on them?
What sort of cost are the 930 type torsion bars? Are they just beefed up for strength or do they aid body rigidity/roll or weigh less etc ?
08-17-2009, 01:20 PM
#4
Hi Mark J,
I have said this in other posts but I will repeat it. I recently went through this upgrade and I have a ton of Porsche experieince as does my friend who builds Porsche race cars and street cars and is well respected nationwide. Anyway here is the perfect setup for an occasional track and good handling street car...
1986 911: Rebush suspension with factory rubber for comfort and less noise than poly bushings. 28mm and 22mm hollow sway bars with bilstein sport rear and HD front sport shocks. Turbo tie rods and new ball joints coupled with a 4 way alignment and counterbalance....lowered to euro spec.
Car rides perfectly with a firmer but not harsh ride over bumps but handles the track driving perfectly.
Oh and I of course used new rubber Bridgestone re01r tires with 6's in front (fuch) and 8's (fuch) in the rear.
I have said this in other posts but I will repeat it. I recently went through this upgrade and I have a ton of Porsche experieince as does my friend who builds Porsche race cars and street cars and is well respected nationwide. Anyway here is the perfect setup for an occasional track and good handling street car...
1986 911: Rebush suspension with factory rubber for comfort and less noise than poly bushings. 28mm and 22mm hollow sway bars with bilstein sport rear and HD front sport shocks. Turbo tie rods and new ball joints coupled with a 4 way alignment and counterbalance....lowered to euro spec.
Car rides perfectly with a firmer but not harsh ride over bumps but handles the track driving perfectly.
Oh and I of course used new rubber Bridgestone re01r tires with 6's in front (fuch) and 8's (fuch) in the rear.
08-17-2009, 02:58 PM
#5
Team Owner
Hey Mark
i can see you are very excited about your new car and are eager to get going and throw mods on your car.
I might respectfully suggest you take a deep breath , tak some time and go learn this aprticular 911, as Ed suggests a few trackdays given your experience will really get you to know the car.
Then take a more haulistic view of what you are trying to achieve when it comes to mods. Guys like Steve Weiner can help out once you know what you are trying to achieve.
Throwing on bushings here , torsion bars there, trying shocks , can be an expensive and frustrating way to go if you do not get the desired results.
Good luck,, if you have any questions, you are in the right place.
i can see you are very excited about your new car and are eager to get going and throw mods on your car.
I might respectfully suggest you take a deep breath , tak some time and go learn this aprticular 911, as Ed suggests a few trackdays given your experience will really get you to know the car.
Then take a more haulistic view of what you are trying to achieve when it comes to mods. Guys like Steve Weiner can help out once you know what you are trying to achieve.
Throwing on bushings here , torsion bars there, trying shocks , can be an expensive and frustrating way to go if you do not get the desired results.
Good luck,, if you have any questions, you are in the right place.
Last edited by theiceman; 08-17-2009 at 06:38 PM.
08-17-2009, 03:11 PM
#6
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Yep, the suspension should be looked at as a whole system. The most expensive way to modify the suspension is by considering one piece at at time. You need to have a plan, and the best way is to trust the people who have sorted it out and know what works best with what.
It sounds like Ricster's friend is one, Steve is another, Pete is another. Elephant Racing also has a bunch of info. I think one of the first things to consider is whether you will be driving the car on the street occasionally, or will you be trailering the car everywhere you go? A good track car can be downright undrivable on the street, and vice versa.
A lot of us have done the suspension re-bushing job. It is a DIY home project. There are two more bushings inside the Bilstein struts, which the gas cartridge slides on. These need to be replaced eventually as well. I think replacement should be sent in to a shop like Rennsport, Smart, or others.
It sounds like Ricster's friend is one, Steve is another, Pete is another. Elephant Racing also has a bunch of info. I think one of the first things to consider is whether you will be driving the car on the street occasionally, or will you be trailering the car everywhere you go? A good track car can be downright undrivable on the street, and vice versa.
A lot of us have done the suspension re-bushing job. It is a DIY home project. There are two more bushings inside the Bilstein struts, which the gas cartridge slides on. These need to be replaced eventually as well. I think replacement should be sent in to a shop like Rennsport, Smart, or others.
08-17-2009, 04:52 PM
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Mark,
Are you just looking at renewing your suspention or an upgrade. From your post is looks like just a bush job.
That is what I did. However, the cost of a good alignment and corner ballance made me wish I had upgraded. My car is used for say 6 DE weekends. It is pretty fast for a stock suspention car.
I stayed with stock rubber style bushings, added 86 only rear torsion bars (24 v 25) and 86 sways (22/21 v 21/18).
A great step up is 22/29 torsion bars with 86 with HD/Sports and renewed or upgraded bushings as noted above. I might even try a 23/30 with earlyer sway bars if you track more than street the car.
Behond that shocks should be upgraded.
Also, I found it is difficult to get enought front camber so that means strut plates or decambered struts. That can be added later as can sways if money is an issue.
ER adjustable rear arms can be a nice addations to. They make is a lot easyer to set the rear height. Selling your old arms to an earlyer owner and the savings in time it takes to CB and align the car might pay for much of its cost.
Costs:
Bushings $400 for rubber, $600 for ER PB.
Shocks, $600
Torsion bars, $600
Align & CB, $500-$750.
I must admit, I turned over my stock front bushings using heat and used the Netrix rear for about $50 as the newer ER rubber replacements were not available. You might find someone that bought the ER front rubber install tool and save $200 or so.
Sways, about $1000 for new adjustable, $250 for used Carrera bars.
Noted that the gas shocks will rase your car up.
Thus-- bushings, torsion bars, and CB should be done togeather.
Are you just looking at renewing your suspention or an upgrade. From your post is looks like just a bush job.
That is what I did. However, the cost of a good alignment and corner ballance made me wish I had upgraded. My car is used for say 6 DE weekends. It is pretty fast for a stock suspention car.
I stayed with stock rubber style bushings, added 86 only rear torsion bars (24 v 25) and 86 sways (22/21 v 21/18).
A great step up is 22/29 torsion bars with 86 with HD/Sports and renewed or upgraded bushings as noted above. I might even try a 23/30 with earlyer sway bars if you track more than street the car.
Behond that shocks should be upgraded.
Also, I found it is difficult to get enought front camber so that means strut plates or decambered struts. That can be added later as can sways if money is an issue.
ER adjustable rear arms can be a nice addations to. They make is a lot easyer to set the rear height. Selling your old arms to an earlyer owner and the savings in time it takes to CB and align the car might pay for much of its cost.
Costs:
Bushings $400 for rubber, $600 for ER PB.
Shocks, $600
Torsion bars, $600
Align & CB, $500-$750.
I must admit, I turned over my stock front bushings using heat and used the Netrix rear for about $50 as the newer ER rubber replacements were not available. You might find someone that bought the ER front rubber install tool and save $200 or so.
Sways, about $1000 for new adjustable, $250 for used Carrera bars.
Noted that the gas shocks will rase your car up.
Thus-- bushings, torsion bars, and CB should be done togeather.
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08-17-2009, 05:02 PM
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All good sound advice gents, thanks for your responses and time 
i know it seems like i am trying to do everything at once but really i am just gleaning as much info to help me decide on mod courses of action down the line.
I was very pleasantly surprised when i test drived the carrera i am getting, it felt planted and reasonably firm, no doubt the 30mm lower ride height helping somewhat.
To ricster, thanks for that info, its been copy pasted into my 911 file for future use
Are the turbo tie rods easily obtainable/expensive? 2nd hand or OEM new ?
and thanks keith for that cost break down. The cost of the bushings surprised me, i did not expect them to run that high?
Are there posts somewhere detailing any of these suspension mods? ie torsion bar replacement etc
Spa and the ring are on my track/life to-do lists...would the factory rubber be up to the task? You make a good point for the road use comfort aspect as i would still like to use the 911 for euro tours with the missus as well as demon track days for me
Are the poly bushes rock hard, bone jarring on normal roads?
i know it seems like i am trying to do everything at once but really i am just gleaning as much info to help me decide on mod courses of action down the line. I was very pleasantly surprised when i test drived the carrera i am getting, it felt planted and reasonably firm, no doubt the 30mm lower ride height helping somewhat.
To ricster, thanks for that info, its been copy pasted into my 911 file for future use
Are the turbo tie rods easily obtainable/expensive? 2nd hand or OEM new ?and thanks keith for that cost break down. The cost of the bushings surprised me, i did not expect them to run that high?
Are there posts somewhere detailing any of these suspension mods? ie torsion bar replacement etc
Spa and the ring are on my track/life to-do lists...would the factory rubber be up to the task? You make a good point for the road use comfort aspect as i would still like to use the 911 for euro tours with the missus as well as demon track days for me
Are the poly bushes rock hard, bone jarring on normal roads?
08-17-2009, 06:45 PM
#9
Team Owner
The turbo tie rods are a very straight forward up grade. Just make sure you are getting quaility stuff. Stick to known vendors. I have heard issues of the rubber boots deteriorating pretty quickly on some.
Also have the vendor verify it is Lemfoerder ( sp ) stuff, it should run you about 160- 200 for the kit , anything less and I would be suspicious,
I did mine in an easy afternoon. Not to bad a project at all. Of course .. you will need an alignment after unless you feel confident about measurements and can do a toe adjustment in your garage.
Also have the vendor verify it is Lemfoerder ( sp ) stuff, it should run you about 160- 200 for the kit , anything less and I would be suspicious,
I did mine in an easy afternoon. Not to bad a project at all. Of course .. you will need an alignment after unless you feel confident about measurements and can do a toe adjustment in your garage.
08-17-2009, 07:33 PM
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It depends. I have them, I love them - but you should really try your best to find a car w/ that upgrade (and other upgrades you're looking to do), drive it, and see if it suits your taste. I find them to make the car much more smooth to drive - probably my new shocks/tbars made the run more harsh if you want to call it that, but I love how responsive my car is.
Here's what I've done suspension-wise (I didn't do it all at once, but I now know that I should have sucked it up in one shot, more cost effective):
-Bilstein sports
-PB control arm bushings
-Elephant monoballs F&R
-22/28 Solid Tbars (neatrix spring plate bushings)
-22 weltmeister adjustable sways F&R
-Turbo tie ride ends
-New ball joints
-Alignment, ride height set a tick below Euro-spec
Here's what I've done suspension-wise (I didn't do it all at once, but I now know that I should have sucked it up in one shot, more cost effective):
-Bilstein sports
-PB control arm bushings
-Elephant monoballs F&R
-22/28 Solid Tbars (neatrix spring plate bushings)
-22 weltmeister adjustable sways F&R
-Turbo tie ride ends
-New ball joints
-Alignment, ride height set a tick below Euro-spec
08-17-2009, 08:41 PM
#11
To ricster, thanks for that info, its been copy pasted into my 911 file for future use Are the turbo tie rods easily obtainable/expensive? 2nd hand or OEM new ?
Lemfoerder is the brand you go with. DO NOT DO USED!! Buy new. They are cheap enough. Ball joints and Turbo tie rods recently cost me $325.00 through pelican parts. And I work at a Porsche dealer...pelican has better prices than I can even get.
Lemfoerder is the brand you go with. DO NOT DO USED!! Buy new. They are cheap enough. Ball joints and Turbo tie rods recently cost me $325.00 through pelican parts. And I work at a Porsche dealer...pelican has better prices than I can even get.
08-17-2009, 11:22 PM
#13
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I bought the Neatrix spring plate bushings, but I think I would try the Elephant Racing ones if I were to do it again. In any case, yes they are available separately, and it's a HUGE improvement to your handling and straight line stability to replace worn spring plate bushings. I was practically giddy after I did mine.
I think I am still suffering from post traumatic stress after trying to install the rubber boots during the turbo tie rod installation. Install the boots with the steering rack loose from the car body. You need strong fingers and blunt tools. Oh, and they are available separately in case you accidentally tear one.
I think I am still suffering from post traumatic stress after trying to install the rubber boots during the turbo tie rod installation. Install the boots with the steering rack loose from the car body. You need strong fingers and blunt tools. Oh, and they are available separately in case you accidentally tear one.
08-18-2009, 07:12 AM
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cheers gents, this thread has been a useful fast track fountain of knowledge on the potential 3.2C upgrades.
The bottom line appears to be to get it all done at once, but i am guessing that is quite a lump sum of cash to outlay. Also, part of the fun is making gradual improvements to a car (IMO) and seeing what effect they have on fast road/track, though as you guys say, it is not as cost effective. If you were going to phase the suspension upgrades, what combo of mods would be wise to be piece-mealed together at install time and in what sequence ?
Not seen any mention of front strut braces so far, i assume they are a wise investment ?
At $325 for the turbo tie rods and ball joints, yes i would buy them new. I was expecting them to be considerably dearer than that.
Car looks great on track Rick !
The bottom line appears to be to get it all done at once, but i am guessing that is quite a lump sum of cash to outlay. Also, part of the fun is making gradual improvements to a car (IMO) and seeing what effect they have on fast road/track, though as you guys say, it is not as cost effective. If you were going to phase the suspension upgrades, what combo of mods would be wise to be piece-mealed together at install time and in what sequence ?
Not seen any mention of front strut braces so far, i assume they are a wise investment ?
At $325 for the turbo tie rods and ball joints, yes i would buy them new. I was expecting them to be considerably dearer than that.
Car looks great on track Rick !
Last edited by Mark J; 08-18-2009 at 09:08 AM.
08-18-2009, 09:20 AM
#15
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The 1st stage would be to replace worn components. Front & rear bushings & balljoints. And the tie rods due to the flexible rubber grommet.
The big advantage in DIY is you get to see & understand how it all works. And you save $s of course . . .
Ian
The big advantage in DIY is you get to see & understand how it all works. And you save $s of course . . .
Ian