Early 911 Barn Find in progress
04-14-2009, 04:43 PM
#61
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Thread Starter
A quick update for the group. I have been trying valiantly to reach the original owner - without success. My research came up with a half dozen potentials in the state, and after contacting them all - none are the owner. A friend who works at an insurance company investigated the VIN and the owners name - and came up with a scary bit of news - my best guess for the owner died in Dec 2007! After mulling over that possibility for a while, he contacted me today with a better match. In the mean time I have reengaged with the homeowner to try and get contact information for her son (the Mustang owner). So far no response, it might take a personal visit...
04-14-2009, 05:32 PM
#62
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Thread Starter
Found him. Just spoke to the owner for about 30 minutes. He told me some interesting history on the car. The Gemini blue 911T was purchased from a Mercedes specialist in Maryland. All the S options are factory (spoiler, suspension) and the blue leather interior was a special order factory installed option (he has the cardex). He was never able to get the car running right, the mechanical injection ran much too rich, and the compression on all cylinders was very low. The transmission worked ok but had a noisy third gear.
He is visiting the car once a year, and trying to "keep the dream alive". There are no efforts being made to sell the car now. But - he was not against hearing an offer. We have each others contact information and the ball is mostly in my court. He has no idea what the car is worth today. His feeling is that the car will not deteriorate any more than it already has for a while longer.
Additionally, if I had explored some of the other rooms in the barn, there are even more cars!!!! A TR3 was mentioned belonging to the homeowners daughter, and some others waiting to be rescued. The homeowners husband was a "major car guy".
He is visiting the car once a year, and trying to "keep the dream alive". There are no efforts being made to sell the car now. But - he was not against hearing an offer. We have each others contact information and the ball is mostly in my court. He has no idea what the car is worth today. His feeling is that the car will not deteriorate any more than it already has for a while longer.
Additionally, if I had explored some of the other rooms in the barn, there are even more cars!!!! A TR3 was mentioned belonging to the homeowners daughter, and some others waiting to be rescued. The homeowners husband was a "major car guy".
04-14-2009, 06:50 PM
#63
This just keeps getting better and better! And to think it's happening not too far away from me.
I love TR3s....
I love TR3s....
04-14-2009, 09:48 PM
#65
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Thread Starter
I am going to do a serious inspection on Friday this week - getting out the icepick. Unless something drastic is found, I think my offer is going to be $3K, going to $5K on the _outside_ if the body inspection comes up fantastic.
So how about it early car experts? Where are the key places to get a good look at?
So how about it early car experts? Where are the key places to get a good look at?
04-14-2009, 09:49 PM
#66
Three Wheelin'
So the big question is what are you going to do? If he could never get the thing started and the gear box needs work, there is probably $15k - $20k worth of work if he takes it to a shop. Plus if there is any body rot that needs attention from sitting so long or anything that has rotted or become moldy on the interior, that is $$$$. I would go in at $5k and then explain that it will take another $25k to get the car on the road. Or, he can take a classic car of limited quantities and just let it die.
Without getting the car off the ground and getting underneath it, you are only getting a fraction of the picture.
Without getting the car off the ground and getting underneath it, you are only getting a fraction of the picture.
04-15-2009, 12:52 AM
#68
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It's unfortunate that it didn't wind up being a 1972 911S. The 911T was quite common and not that special. It's in deplorable condition and that's the way it needs to be presented to the owner. You're doing him a favor taking it off his hands. You will wind up spending a lot to get that thing back to any sort of reasonable condition. Be prepared for that. And a lot of time. When you're done, you have a'72 T.
I'll take the other side of this and say a '72 MFI 'T' is a desirable car and very fun to drive. If the engine needs to be rebuilt just do a few mods and make a 2.4S or 2.7 RS spec. engine with little extra cost (look for a front oil cooler when you go back). Based on the photos I think this car has great potential. What is the odometer reading? Does the owner have records besides the CoA?
If this car was brought back to a # 2 condition car you are looking at a price in the mid 30K easy. If it is a #1 car it would be north of $40K.
Check for rust in the front pan, rockers, rear torsion tubes and the floor. Also look for bubbling paint in the rear front fenders and bottoms of the doors. If this car is solid, with your abilities to do the work to bring it back you will not be under water, especially if you are looking for a condition 2 or 3 car, IMHO. Hope it works out for you.
04-15-2009, 01:14 AM
#69
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Thread Starter
What is a nicely restored 1972 911T coupe worth in today's market?
A pretty nice E (for Even better) Targe recently sold on ebay for $17,500 (Item 230330857702). Another a bit less original (as in the car had the entire front half of the body replaced!!) T got $19,400 (190295199814)
A pretty nice E (for Even better) Targe recently sold on ebay for $17,500 (Item 230330857702). Another a bit less original (as in the car had the entire front half of the body replaced!!) T got $19,400 (190295199814)
04-15-2009, 03:47 PM
#70
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I am going to do a serious inspection on Friday this week - getting out the icepick. Unless something drastic is found, I think my offer is going to be $3K, going to $5K on the _outside_ if the body inspection comes up fantastic.
So how about it early car experts? Where are the key places to get a good look at?
So how about it early car experts? Where are the key places to get a good look at?
Late last year I bought a '72 RSR clone that had been built on a '72 911T chassis. The car was built in 1999 and won the Porsche Parade Concours in the Modified/Track class (I think that's what the class name is) that year. The previous owner is a very good friend and I had agreed years ago to buy the car if he ever sold it. It's a pristine car, 3.4 MFI with real RSR high butterfly throttle bodies (Rudy Bartling raced the motor in another car before rebuilding and selling it to my bud), a 915, Quaife, RSR bodywork, 930 suspension and brakes - you get the idea. Now, obviously it's not a #'s matching type car, nor a real RSR, but it's as close as mere mortals can get to the real deal. I bought that car for about $33K US. Price point to keep in mind. My buddy had so much more than that in the car it's not funny - another point to keep in mind.
Rust wise, as I went through the car this winter, there are patch panels in the footwells and in the rear seat seat wells so in addition to the obvious spots, have a look under the rear seats, the package shelf, the kick panels in the front and see what you've got.
Mechanically and electrically, you're probably taking everything apart and replacing half of it. You can find deals sourcing the parts but it's a lot of work.
However, if you're goal is to have a car that looks and runs great, AND you want the pride of having done it yourself, as long as the tub is in good shape, go for it. If your goal is to eventually make money on the car, that's likely impossible. I've got three other cars that fit that bill, but I don't regret a single one - they were all a labour of love.
Good luck.
04-15-2009, 06:04 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hi Chris, a bit of history first, then some suggestions on what to look for rust wise.
Late last year I bought a '72 RSR clone that had been built on a '72 911T chassis. The car was built in 1999 and won the Porsche Parade Concours in the Modified/Track class (I think that's what the class name is) that year. The previous owner is a very good friend and I had agreed years ago to buy the car if he ever sold it. It's a pristine car, 3.4 MFI with real RSR high butterfly throttle bodies (Rudy Bartling raced the motor in another car before rebuilding and selling it to my bud), a 915, Quaife, RSR bodywork, 930 suspension and brakes - you get the idea. Now, obviously it's not a #'s matching type car, nor a real RSR, but it's as close as mere mortals can get to the real deal. I bought that car for about $33K US. Price point to keep in mind. My buddy had so much more than that in the car it's not funny - another point to keep in mind.
Rust wise, as I went through the car this winter, there are patch panels in the footwells and in the rear seat seat wells so in addition to the obvious spots, have a look under the rear seats, the package shelf, the kick panels in the front and see what you've got.
Mechanically and electrically, you're probably taking everything apart and replacing half of it. You can find deals sourcing the parts but it's a lot of work.
However, if you're goal is to have a car that looks and runs great, AND you want the pride of having done it yourself, as long as the tub is in good shape, go for it. If your goal is to eventually make money on the car, that's likely impossible. I've got three other cars that fit that bill, but I don't regret a single one - they were all a labour of love.
Good luck.
Late last year I bought a '72 RSR clone that had been built on a '72 911T chassis. The car was built in 1999 and won the Porsche Parade Concours in the Modified/Track class (I think that's what the class name is) that year. The previous owner is a very good friend and I had agreed years ago to buy the car if he ever sold it. It's a pristine car, 3.4 MFI with real RSR high butterfly throttle bodies (Rudy Bartling raced the motor in another car before rebuilding and selling it to my bud), a 915, Quaife, RSR bodywork, 930 suspension and brakes - you get the idea. Now, obviously it's not a #'s matching type car, nor a real RSR, but it's as close as mere mortals can get to the real deal. I bought that car for about $33K US. Price point to keep in mind. My buddy had so much more than that in the car it's not funny - another point to keep in mind.
Rust wise, as I went through the car this winter, there are patch panels in the footwells and in the rear seat seat wells so in addition to the obvious spots, have a look under the rear seats, the package shelf, the kick panels in the front and see what you've got.
Mechanically and electrically, you're probably taking everything apart and replacing half of it. You can find deals sourcing the parts but it's a lot of work.
However, if you're goal is to have a car that looks and runs great, AND you want the pride of having done it yourself, as long as the tub is in good shape, go for it. If your goal is to eventually make money on the car, that's likely impossible. I've got three other cars that fit that bill, but I don't regret a single one - they were all a labour of love.
Good luck.
04-15-2009, 08:32 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Chris,
You will almost never make out restoring a car and command a profit by selling it when it is done. I know those aren't your intentions, but my point is that people restore cars because it is fun to do, not profitable.
The flip side of that is if you are in the business of restoring other people's cars, then you can make money.
If your goal is to get a very nice car in the end, then the least expensive way is to buy something that someone already has restored and let the previous owner pay for all the expense and hidden expenses of restoration. That way you enjoy the fruits of their labor.
On the other hand, if you want a project, this could be a fun project that you could take a lot of pride in.
You will almost never make out restoring a car and command a profit by selling it when it is done. I know those aren't your intentions, but my point is that people restore cars because it is fun to do, not profitable.
The flip side of that is if you are in the business of restoring other people's cars, then you can make money.
If your goal is to get a very nice car in the end, then the least expensive way is to buy something that someone already has restored and let the previous owner pay for all the expense and hidden expenses of restoration. That way you enjoy the fruits of their labor.
On the other hand, if you want a project, this could be a fun project that you could take a lot of pride in.
04-15-2009, 11:11 PM
#74
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Chris,
There a bunch of variables to go into determining value of classic or collector car. Like condition, originality, documentation, history, options, mileage, etc.
The value guides are all over the map depending on which one you look at. Lets stick with this car. Say it is solid, with no rust or maybe just some surface rust on the bottom of the car. We know it has the S option package, thru the grill fogs, wheel arch trim, A/C, leather seats, and a sun roof. Look the paint over real well also. Is it original, if not is it still in good shape. Then find out about the records for the car. Your top $ amount for the car should be based on these items. This is tricky but if you have a trusted friend, who knows these cars it would be helpful to have another set of eyes looking over this car with you.
Lets just say that the car is solid, has some or all original paint that is presentable, and you can put your hands on a long documented history of the car. If you go through a sympathetic restoration (mostly mechanical, electrical, and cosmetic) then you are at a car worth high $40K or even into the $50K range, especially if the mileage is low. All big assumptions for sure but work back from there when checking out the car. Have fun.
The blue car could go from something like this:
To this without a total restoration if your lucky:
There a bunch of variables to go into determining value of classic or collector car. Like condition, originality, documentation, history, options, mileage, etc.
The value guides are all over the map depending on which one you look at. Lets stick with this car. Say it is solid, with no rust or maybe just some surface rust on the bottom of the car. We know it has the S option package, thru the grill fogs, wheel arch trim, A/C, leather seats, and a sun roof. Look the paint over real well also. Is it original, if not is it still in good shape. Then find out about the records for the car. Your top $ amount for the car should be based on these items. This is tricky but if you have a trusted friend, who knows these cars it would be helpful to have another set of eyes looking over this car with you.
Lets just say that the car is solid, has some or all original paint that is presentable, and you can put your hands on a long documented history of the car. If you go through a sympathetic restoration (mostly mechanical, electrical, and cosmetic) then you are at a car worth high $40K or even into the $50K range, especially if the mileage is low. All big assumptions for sure but work back from there when checking out the car. Have fun.
The blue car could go from something like this:
To this without a total restoration if your lucky:
04-16-2009, 01:02 AM
#75
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Chris,
There a bunch of variables to go into determining value of classic or collector car. Like condition, originality, documentation, history, options, mileage, etc.
The value guides are all over the map depending on which one you look at. Lets stick with this car. Say it is solid, with no rust or maybe just some surface rust on the bottom of the car. We know it has the S option package, thru the grill fogs, wheel arch trim, A/C, leather seats, and a sun roof. Look the paint over real well also. Is it original, if not is it still in good shape. Then find out about the records for the car. Your top $ amount for the car should be based on these items. This is tricky but if you have a trusted friend, who knows these cars it would be helpful to have another set of eyes looking over this car with you.
Lets just say that the car is solid, has some or all original paint that is presentable, and you can put your hands on a long documented history of the car. If you go through a sympathetic restoration (mostly mechanical, electrical, and cosmetic) then you are at a car worth high $40K or even into the $50K range, especially if the mileage is low. All big assumptions for sure but work back from there when checking out the car. Have fun.
The blue car could go from something like this:
To this without a total restoration if your lucky:
There a bunch of variables to go into determining value of classic or collector car. Like condition, originality, documentation, history, options, mileage, etc.
The value guides are all over the map depending on which one you look at. Lets stick with this car. Say it is solid, with no rust or maybe just some surface rust on the bottom of the car. We know it has the S option package, thru the grill fogs, wheel arch trim, A/C, leather seats, and a sun roof. Look the paint over real well also. Is it original, if not is it still in good shape. Then find out about the records for the car. Your top $ amount for the car should be based on these items. This is tricky but if you have a trusted friend, who knows these cars it would be helpful to have another set of eyes looking over this car with you.
Lets just say that the car is solid, has some or all original paint that is presentable, and you can put your hands on a long documented history of the car. If you go through a sympathetic restoration (mostly mechanical, electrical, and cosmetic) then you are at a car worth high $40K or even into the $50K range, especially if the mileage is low. All big assumptions for sure but work back from there when checking out the car. Have fun.
The blue car could go from something like this:
To this without a total restoration if your lucky:
Recondition the wheels, get new tires.
And we haven't talked about rust repair yet...