Flying Finn

Me again, wondering what 911 to buy. This time not thinking about conversions. I heard (thank you jpc) that 964 cars are more trouble than earlier or later (than 964) cars. What are your opinions? Who has experience about 80's 911 car or/and 964 & 993 cars? What are the good & bad qualities of those cars?

Thanks (advanced) for your help!

Best regards,
FF

MelissaM

Hi Flying Finn!

I have owned a 1990 C2 Cabriolet for the past 3 and a half years, so I do have some thoughts on the good, the bad and the ugly on 964's.

Before I go specifically into the 964, here's a few things you should probably consider:

1. What's your budget?
2. Drive a few cars from each vintage (that meets your budget) and determine which suits you the best.
3. What are you planning to do with the car? Daily driver? Weekend pleasure cruiser? Track/DE?
4. Do you live in a climate that might benefit from all wheel drive?
5. Do you have a preference for the way any of the cars look?

OK, now about the 964. I think it is an awesome daily driver! It has the amenities -- improved heating/air conditioning, air bags, ABS, power steering. It has the 3.6 liter engine, and improved suspension. And, it probably won't be a collector's item, so you don't have to worry about putting the miles on it.

However, with the 964 you have higher maintenance costs. It's a dual ignition system, so you have twice as many plugs and plug wires to replace when the time comes. I'm not sure how the other maintenance costs compare to the earlier 911's, since I've never owned an earlier 911. Perhaps others can fill you in.

By the way, 993's have hydraulic valve lifters, so you don't have to pay for a valve adjustment every 30k miles. On the other hand, the 993 oil change procedure is pretty daunting for a do-it-yourselfer because there's an extra filter to deal with. Apparently the filter is VERY difficult to get to, something about needing your forearm to bend like an S.

Things to watch out for on the 964. Ah yes, the early 964's have a reputation for some big problems. No cylinder head gasket, so some engines leaked around the cylinder head. This only affected a minority of the cars, and a lot of those affected were fixed under warranty. So...definitely look for this problem before you buy, as the car's probably out of warranty, and it's a very expensive fix.

Also, watch out for the dual mass flywheel. The original unit (Freudenberg sp?) tended to break. Many have already been replaced by the Luk unit.

Watch out for the belt that drives the dual distributor. It should be vented to keep the belt from deterioration. Even so, the belt might still be worn out, so do get it checked out.

These are some of the big things to watch for on 964's. I'm sure others can fill you in.

Take your time, get a PPI, check the maintenance records, and get the car that's right for you. In the meantime, have a great time shopping!

Good luck!

-- Melissa

Jay H

Finn:

Melissa covered quite a bit in her post and I agree with her on all of her points. I previously owned an '86 Carrera and currently have a '90 964 C2.

My $.02 is that the 964 suits me better for daily driving (although I now don't do much of that with the '90 vs. the '86). The comforts of the 964 help with driving to work, errands, etc. The '86 had a little more 'feel' to it, if you will. I've really gotten to like my 964 and would be hard to go back to the previous generation (I'm really liking this 3.6!). My '86 ran about $100 per month on average for maintenace and repairs. Some years would have very little expense and other years I was replacing the clutch for $1500. My 964 is running a little more in maintenance due to more complex technology. But, many things are costing the same as the old car (fluid changes, tires, etc). The 80's 911's are more of a DIY car due to their simplicity vs. the 964.

Again it depends on what you want to use the 911 for. Some 964 are really dropping in price, so there are some definite bargins out there in the 964's.

My '86 gave me absolutely no problems over the 4 years I had it other than regular maintenance and replacement of the original clutch after 110,000 miles. Quite the bullet proof car.

Drive several examples and see what suits you.

Hope this helps,
Jay

[ 31-05-2001: Message edited by: Jay H ]

Planter91C2

how can you compare an under 20k car (carrera) to an over 40k car (993)?

apples and oranges.

Flying Finn

Thanks Melissa & Jay!

All good points & exactly what I'm looking for. I like 964's looks a little better so that where I'm leaning currently, but you never know...

Planter91C2:

I know they are different (and I like 993 better), but I'd like to know how much & which way they are different. 993 is maybe alittle over my budget so I really liked to know how much better is it before I sgueezed my ***** ang go for it. (If I go for 993, I'd propably have to sell my older 911 which I'd like to keep)

Thanks again and please everybody, give me anything, everything is good info so keep them coming.

Gus B.

Jay and Melissa have covered most of it, but from the extensive research I have done, apparently power steering pumps could also be a weak link in the 964 series. Also, more than a couple of people have complained about erratic airbag warning light troubles.

Bill Gregory

I'm an 80's 911 owner. The 911SC (78-83) and Carrera's (84-89) have been strong models with not too many faults. In the 20 years since they were introduced some of the faults have been replaced, like the rubber centered clutch on the SC's, for example. If I were to recommend an 80's 911, first I'd suggest the 87-89 Carrera's (with the G50 transmission), then the 84-87 Carrera's, then the 80-83 911SC (with O2 sensor). Peter Zimmermann's book "The Used 911 Story" is well worth $20 as he details the strengths and weaknesses of each model. Bruce Anderson also provides a net version of pro's and con's in his Market Updates in Excellence magazine, with the most recent being the 74-89 911's in the August 2001 issue.

Bill Wagner

I own a '91 C4. I expect the maintenance costs to be higher (maybe) than one of the older 911 models, but high compared to what?

I come from a background of "Japanese supercars". Try these costs:

1. $8000 for a transaxle swap out on a Dodge Stealth RT/TT or Mitsubishi 3000 GT VR-4 (the same cars...the Dodge is just a re-badged VR-4). Parts for the tranny aren't available except for a FEW (not all) oil seals.

2. $5000 for a turbo swap on a 300ZXTT (engine needs to be pulled).

3. $3000 for an ABS pump on the Stealth...not including installation.

4. $6000 for an RX-7 overhaul when the Apex seals fail (the rotary engine doesn't have "rings" like a normal piston car does....pull the engine and do a complete overhaul when it wears or the cooling system fails).

I could go on and on. All cars will cost money. SCs and the 3.2 Carreras, although reliable can still be money pits simply because of their age. Rubber seals like to rot. Everyone always likes to highlight the major repair issues with a car while frequently overlooking a fair number of repairs that occur with age that may become frequent and can literally "nickel and dime" you to death.

Something to think about, and I hope this helps,

Bill Wagner

Flying Finn

Thanks again evryone, this has bee/will be very helpful! Keep 'em coming everyone. Every opinion is very welcome!

Randall G.

Hi FF,

If you want to be more comfortable, safer and go faster, you'll want to look very hard at the 964/993. The 964 buys you (very-near) 993 performance and comfort for a lot less money!

Hope this helps!