Rebuild or 3.6 conversion...
12-26-2008, 02:33 PM
#49
Race Car
The price can really be just about anywhere. For just the engine swap, think about a range from 8K to 28K with a bell curve connecting them. One side of that curve is for the risk-taking DIY-er; the other side is for the guy who's willing to pay for no drama at all, and sometimes just gets excited at the prospect of improving every piece of the project -- like buying a used motor and then rebuilding it.
I paid 5K for my motor, 1.5K for conversion parts, and 1.5K for the labor for the swap. On top of that, I added a second oil cooler, and I don't remember how much that worked out to. But the crazy minimum for guys who can do some or all of the work themselves would probably about 10K, and that's if you could find a 5K 3.6 (or get the engine cost down to that number with the sale of your old motor).
And all that said, the total amount I put into my car when you include other changes is 10K with a 'couples-therapy-size' multiplier. My accountant once told my wife what my total automotive expenses for that year were, and -- while it didn't lead to divorce court -- it did mean that accountant got replaced.
I didn't know who Steve Weiner was when I did my swap, and he's not someone who's going to deliver the project for stupid-low money. But he's also not going to lead you down a golden path or leave with you a jerry-rigged nightmare. My way of doing it involved a lot of crossed fingers and wondering whether I was going to have to re-do everything all over again because someone cut the wrong corners. In my case, I took some big chances with a motor seller I knew very little about and a mechanic who had never done this particular swap and was willing to give me a flat price so that I could be his test case. His work turned out to be fine, as it happened, but I had everything re-done when I crashed the car at Laguna Seca and moved the drivetrain over to a new tub.
Also: keep in mind that I was doing this work seven or eight years ago. I would guess that if you pay 8-10K for a motor, you'd be in for 15-20k total for just the engine swap -- but that's just a guess. The total might be more from a no-excuses shop like Steve's -- but Steve will not bait-and-switch you with one price going in and another price down the line. There are a lot of varables, too: the exhaust alone can vary from being super cheap (your old Carrera exhaust) to middlin' (a modified 993 exhaust) to pricey (any of the custom solutions out there). There are a lot of different 3.6-liter motors, from the bare-bones 964 to the tricked-out Varioram 994 models. If you do any work on improving your used engine, the price will also start shooting up in a hurry.
That might not be a whole lot of help. But with either an engine swap or a rebuild of your current engine, there are going to be lots of opportunities to spend serious money.
I paid 5K for my motor, 1.5K for conversion parts, and 1.5K for the labor for the swap. On top of that, I added a second oil cooler, and I don't remember how much that worked out to. But the crazy minimum for guys who can do some or all of the work themselves would probably about 10K, and that's if you could find a 5K 3.6 (or get the engine cost down to that number with the sale of your old motor).
And all that said, the total amount I put into my car when you include other changes is 10K with a 'couples-therapy-size' multiplier. My accountant once told my wife what my total automotive expenses for that year were, and -- while it didn't lead to divorce court -- it did mean that accountant got replaced.
I didn't know who Steve Weiner was when I did my swap, and he's not someone who's going to deliver the project for stupid-low money. But he's also not going to lead you down a golden path or leave with you a jerry-rigged nightmare. My way of doing it involved a lot of crossed fingers and wondering whether I was going to have to re-do everything all over again because someone cut the wrong corners. In my case, I took some big chances with a motor seller I knew very little about and a mechanic who had never done this particular swap and was willing to give me a flat price so that I could be his test case. His work turned out to be fine, as it happened, but I had everything re-done when I crashed the car at Laguna Seca and moved the drivetrain over to a new tub.
Also: keep in mind that I was doing this work seven or eight years ago. I would guess that if you pay 8-10K for a motor, you'd be in for 15-20k total for just the engine swap -- but that's just a guess. The total might be more from a no-excuses shop like Steve's -- but Steve will not bait-and-switch you with one price going in and another price down the line. There are a lot of varables, too: the exhaust alone can vary from being super cheap (your old Carrera exhaust) to middlin' (a modified 993 exhaust) to pricey (any of the custom solutions out there). There are a lot of different 3.6-liter motors, from the bare-bones 964 to the tricked-out Varioram 994 models. If you do any work on improving your used engine, the price will also start shooting up in a hurry.
That might not be a whole lot of help. But with either an engine swap or a rebuild of your current engine, there are going to be lots of opportunities to spend serious money.
Last edited by JackOlsen; 12-26-2008 at 02:52 PM.
12-26-2008, 04:30 PM
#51
Pro
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in the Hinterland
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yup!
Jack has done an excellent job of laying out the scenario.
This is the thing: If you are willing and patient, and don't need immediate gratification,
this is totally doable, in phases, over time. If you want to just ship the car to someone competent, and do everything in one fell swoop- THAT will cost a bunch.
Both Jack and I did our cars in a more building block fashion, starting with the engine conversion.
(Note: I am talking about Black Beauty 1 here; after the shunt, i think Jack went whole hog on
BB2 - Jack, correct me if I am mistaken here.)
To properly rebuild your current engine, or buy a 3.6 is a wash.
And, here again, a little ingenuity and work on your part helps.
Even though I had the magnesium 7R case 2.7, that EVERY Porsche person will tell you is worthless,
I was still able to part the engine out and sell off every component. (don't sell it as a complete motor, you'll get ripped off for sure)
In the end, from parting out ALL the pieces I've removed from the original matching numbers 1975 911S, I have recouped MORE than I paid for the car initially ( $ 11,500.00).
And I do mean everything--> t-bars, interior bit, steering wheel, motor parts, brake assys, even silly things like package shelf, antenna, bumper guards etc...Gotta be creative!...LOL!
The engine will need things like extra cooling, which Jack also covered. Mine has a lightweight flywheel which REALLY ramps up the RPMs f-a-s-t!
And, again as stated, a bunch of details that really make it work....
You will need to do suspension / chassis dynamics to cope with the sheer torque and power of the motor's effect on the car. Again, this can be done as a phase 2, to the motor.
I had a ball in mine, with just the engine conversion....I mean it was UNBELIEVEABLE!
Suspension work came when i realized the motor was way over powering the chassis on the track.
I think another excellent point Jack made earlier, is also whether or not you want this for street or track. To be seriously aggressive upon the Goliaths of the race tracks, you need symbiosis of all the interactive parts- motor, trans, suspension, brakes, aero-- and the expertise to corner balance, set cambers, etc...to take full advantage of the components.
This is where there are very few people who can do this correctly.
Steve has been racing and building Porsches for 30 years. Campaigned 935s in IMSA in the late 70's and early 80's. Raced the original RSRs.
Jeff Gamroth was voted Mechanic of the Year in the ALMS working as Chief Mechanic for Alex Job during the 993 RSR era. And, he is still a successful racer.
Folks like these, as Jack said, will not bait and switch, pull shenanigans, lie to you, none of it.
But, they will not cut corners either, and when you get the product, it is truly greater than the sum of the parts.
I had to learna and do a lot of my car on my own, with explicit instruction from Steve. (I'm in the midwest, he's in Oregon). I bought all the parts from Steve he specified, and at times, due to his incredible
steadfast nature (answering my frantic calls on a weekend for instance) - i would send him a
"consultation fee" voluntarily.
After having been totally screwed and losing $$$ to the idiots where i live who said they knew what they were doing, only to be proven wrong, I was thankful to be under the guidance of someone i could trust.
It was only after 5 years, and 100,000 miles on the conversion, that I needed multiple things I was not going to be able to do myself i.e. rebuild the motor, LSD for the transmission, Chassis tuning in the form of Motons, etc.... so I decided to send it to Steve fall 2007.
The car I got back is sublime. I wouldn't give it up for anything. And, i am an instructor for various clubs and organizations, so i have driven and been driven in almost every kind of car.
Racers who have ridden with me, have commented, not only on the performance of the car itself,
but more importantly, how the car fits me so well as a driver, and my comfort level in it.
Jack has done an excellent job of laying out the scenario.
This is the thing: If you are willing and patient, and don't need immediate gratification,
this is totally doable, in phases, over time. If you want to just ship the car to someone competent, and do everything in one fell swoop- THAT will cost a bunch.
Both Jack and I did our cars in a more building block fashion, starting with the engine conversion.
(Note: I am talking about Black Beauty 1 here; after the shunt, i think Jack went whole hog on
BB2 - Jack, correct me if I am mistaken here.)
To properly rebuild your current engine, or buy a 3.6 is a wash.
And, here again, a little ingenuity and work on your part helps.
Even though I had the magnesium 7R case 2.7, that EVERY Porsche person will tell you is worthless,
I was still able to part the engine out and sell off every component. (don't sell it as a complete motor, you'll get ripped off for sure)
In the end, from parting out ALL the pieces I've removed from the original matching numbers 1975 911S, I have recouped MORE than I paid for the car initially ( $ 11,500.00).
And I do mean everything--> t-bars, interior bit, steering wheel, motor parts, brake assys, even silly things like package shelf, antenna, bumper guards etc...Gotta be creative!...LOL!
The engine will need things like extra cooling, which Jack also covered. Mine has a lightweight flywheel which REALLY ramps up the RPMs f-a-s-t!
And, again as stated, a bunch of details that really make it work....
You will need to do suspension / chassis dynamics to cope with the sheer torque and power of the motor's effect on the car. Again, this can be done as a phase 2, to the motor.
I had a ball in mine, with just the engine conversion....I mean it was UNBELIEVEABLE!
Suspension work came when i realized the motor was way over powering the chassis on the track.
I think another excellent point Jack made earlier, is also whether or not you want this for street or track. To be seriously aggressive upon the Goliaths of the race tracks, you need symbiosis of all the interactive parts- motor, trans, suspension, brakes, aero-- and the expertise to corner balance, set cambers, etc...to take full advantage of the components.
This is where there are very few people who can do this correctly.
Steve has been racing and building Porsches for 30 years. Campaigned 935s in IMSA in the late 70's and early 80's. Raced the original RSRs.
Jeff Gamroth was voted Mechanic of the Year in the ALMS working as Chief Mechanic for Alex Job during the 993 RSR era. And, he is still a successful racer.
Folks like these, as Jack said, will not bait and switch, pull shenanigans, lie to you, none of it.
But, they will not cut corners either, and when you get the product, it is truly greater than the sum of the parts.
I had to learna and do a lot of my car on my own, with explicit instruction from Steve. (I'm in the midwest, he's in Oregon). I bought all the parts from Steve he specified, and at times, due to his incredible
steadfast nature (answering my frantic calls on a weekend for instance) - i would send him a
"consultation fee" voluntarily.
After having been totally screwed and losing $$$ to the idiots where i live who said they knew what they were doing, only to be proven wrong, I was thankful to be under the guidance of someone i could trust.
It was only after 5 years, and 100,000 miles on the conversion, that I needed multiple things I was not going to be able to do myself i.e. rebuild the motor, LSD for the transmission, Chassis tuning in the form of Motons, etc.... so I decided to send it to Steve fall 2007.
The car I got back is sublime. I wouldn't give it up for anything. And, i am an instructor for various clubs and organizations, so i have driven and been driven in almost every kind of car.
Racers who have ridden with me, have commented, not only on the performance of the car itself,
but more importantly, how the car fits me so well as a driver, and my comfort level in it.
12-26-2008, 06:23 PM
#52
RL Technical Advisor
Well stated, gentlemen!!!! 
This thread should really be saved in the archives for those wishing to perform this conversion as those are some of the wisest words of sage advice and knowledge I've seen on the subject.
This thread should really be saved in the archives for those wishing to perform this conversion as those are some of the wisest words of sage advice and knowledge I've seen on the subject.
01-06-2009, 10:55 PM
#53
Instructor
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
amen, it is a sleepery slope, the cost to do a good job starts at $16K-$25K
and, you could maybe "maybe" keep up with a GT3
in comprasion a GT3 it is like a new computer, and my car is like an old typewriter
however, my 86 with a viroram runs like a mad dog.
1986 Carrera with a 95 993 3.6L converted to Vram
235/40/17 Fikse front 275/40/17 rear GTfront big brakes
can you imagine?
and, you could maybe "maybe" keep up with a GT3
in comprasion a GT3 it is like a new computer, and my car is like an old typewriter
however, my 86 with a viroram runs like a mad dog.
1986 Carrera with a 95 993 3.6L converted to Vram
235/40/17 Fikse front 275/40/17 rear GTfront big brakes
can you imagine?
01-06-2009, 11:38 PM
#54
Pro
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in the Hinterland
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Jack stated, if your 3.6 conversion is set up properly, and you have the companion
integrated systems of chassis tuning / suspension, brakes, LSD, aero...
these cars are very much in the hunt for GT3's and other Goliaths.
The advantages of low unsprung weight, low vehicle weight, tremendous power and torque
do a lot to balance the technology advantage.
Moton motorsport shocks and accompanying aero help a lot too, in bringing a torsion bar car's suspension up to snuff.
integrated systems of chassis tuning / suspension, brakes, LSD, aero...
these cars are very much in the hunt for GT3's and other Goliaths.
The advantages of low unsprung weight, low vehicle weight, tremendous power and torque
do a lot to balance the technology advantage.
Moton motorsport shocks and accompanying aero help a lot too, in bringing a torsion bar car's suspension up to snuff.
01-07-2009, 01:48 AM
#55
RL Technical Advisor
As Jack stated, if your 3.6 conversion is set up properly, and you have the companion
integrated systems of chassis tuning / suspension, brakes, LSD, aero...
these cars are very much in the hunt for GT3's and other Goliaths.
The advantages of low unsprung weight, low vehicle weight, tremendous power and torque
do a lot to balance the technology advantage.
Moton motorsport shocks and accompanying aero help a lot too, in bringing a torsion bar car's suspension up to snuff.
integrated systems of chassis tuning / suspension, brakes, LSD, aero...
these cars are very much in the hunt for GT3's and other Goliaths.
The advantages of low unsprung weight, low vehicle weight, tremendous power and torque
do a lot to balance the technology advantage.
Moton motorsport shocks and accompanying aero help a lot too, in bringing a torsion bar car's suspension up to snuff.
01-07-2009, 02:50 AM
#56
Race Car
I'm just an average driver on the fringes of club racing, but here's an illustration of what a well-set-up 3.6-liter-powered street-driven 911 did against any and all (modern and vintage, no limits on modifications) comers in the five-tracks-in-five-days Open Track Challenge.
Four of the teams in the top ten had professional drivers hired for the week. In this division, we had to drive the car from track to track on the same (street) tires we raced on.
I was understandably proud of my old 911. It kept its decals on for that year's R Gruppe event.
All that said. Steve Weiner is an authority on this sort of thing -- he's forgotten more about racing and street Porsches than I'll ever know. Listen to him.
Four of the teams in the top ten had professional drivers hired for the week. In this division, we had to drive the car from track to track on the same (street) tires we raced on.
I was understandably proud of my old 911. It kept its decals on for that year's R Gruppe event.
All that said. Steve Weiner is an authority on this sort of thing -- he's forgotten more about racing and street Porsches than I'll ever know. Listen to him.
01-07-2009, 09:23 AM
#57
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC & North Myrtle Beach, SC
Posts: 4,146
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
If you want HP, try this link. Protomotive has just the ticket for ya. I love mine.
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/products.html
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/products.html
01-07-2009, 11:14 AM
#58
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
sinful- well, at least for now, I already have a 930. I was thinking that the normally aspirated motor would probably do a little better on the short tracks where I live but I have enjoyed driving my 930 out there.
Jack- that's awesome! something tells me, however, that there's a lot going on under the skin of that gorgeous 911 to help that 3.6 motor get it around the track.
I am still struggling with what to do. I really don't want to sell my (1989) 930 but I don't know where else I'd get the money for a 3.6 conversion. I have the 930 for sale but I'm not going to give it away. I may just have to ride things out a bit and see if there's a way to keep both. I also have my M3 for sale but, fortunately or unfortunately, I really need something with a back seat for 2 kids and the old air conditioners don't even have a small effect on the Arizona summer heat. Something has to go unless my wife miraculously learns to drive a stick and we can trade cars on occasion. Our previous outings to teach her haven't been encouraging. Not sure I want her driving my Porsches anytime soon.
Jack- that's awesome! something tells me, however, that there's a lot going on under the skin of that gorgeous 911 to help that 3.6 motor get it around the track.
I am still struggling with what to do. I really don't want to sell my (1989) 930 but I don't know where else I'd get the money for a 3.6 conversion. I have the 930 for sale but I'm not going to give it away. I may just have to ride things out a bit and see if there's a way to keep both. I also have my M3 for sale but, fortunately or unfortunately, I really need something with a back seat for 2 kids and the old air conditioners don't even have a small effect on the Arizona summer heat. Something has to go unless my wife miraculously learns to drive a stick and we can trade cars on occasion. Our previous outings to teach her haven't been encouraging. Not sure I want her driving my Porsches anytime soon.
01-07-2009, 09:05 PM
#60
Race Car
Thanks. You're right, the decals got removed after the event itself (and the car show that followed it).
It's a pretty normal-looking 911 when you see it on the street.
Photo by Zach Mayne.
And yes, it's uh, 'a little north of stock' underneath all the fiberglass.
It's a pretty normal-looking 911 when you see it on the street.
Photo by Zach Mayne.
And yes, it's uh, 'a little north of stock' underneath all the fiberglass.