Rebuild or 3.6 conversion...
12-20-2008, 09:39 AM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Abe- Trust me, that is the biggest issue I am struggling with. I did call my dad to speak to him about my idea and he was, as he has ALWAYS been, supportive of whatever I wanted to do to make the car enjoyable. I agree that it would be worth more in stock form, but since I doubt I'd ever sell it, the only thing that matters to me is how I value it. Like I said though, I am still struggling with that part of it.
12-20-2008, 11:42 AM
#17
Race Car
You're getting lots of good advice here. But I'll say this: if 'freeing up some cash' and 'keeping peace in an expanding household' are important, then you might want to think about another project. As Steve points out, a swap ain't cheap if you're going to do it right. And if your mechanic didn't mention adding an additional oil cooler, for example, then I suspect he's not aware of the full scope of the project the two of you are getting yourselves into. (The 3.6 motors lost their engine-based oil coolers to make room for a power steering pump. They compensated with the improved front airflow of the 964. When you mate the 3.6 to an earlier chassis, this is one of the things you've got to tackle.)
On the flipside, some people tack on additions to the idea of a 3.6 swap that aren't all that realistic. If you're tracking your 88 and you're happy with the brakes and the suspension (no fade, adequate handling), then you're still going to be able to corner and stop just fine with a 3.6 in the engine bay. The weight of the two engines, as they're installed in a car like yours, are pretty close to equal. As your driving improves, you might want to modify the suspension no matter what engine you've got in there -- but horsepower doesn't make your car go through a corner and faster or any slower.
I used to say that the 3.6 swap was by far the most economical way to add power to most 911s. But 8 years ago, I was able to get a low-mile 3.6 for 5K and the jump in power from my previous 2.2-liter T motor was substantial. Used 964 motors aren't getting any younger, and they're also (oddly) getting more expensive. But then, rebuilding a 3.2 is also getting pricey. With a Carrera, you're in the toughest region, honestly, for bang-for-buck power improvements.
In your shoes, I might look at an extensive upgrading of your car's 20-year-old (I'm assuming stock) suspension. Done well, it would still be a lot cheaper than a motor swap/rebuild, and if you track the car a lot, it's probably going to make a bigger difference than 50 more horsepower.
On the flipside, some people tack on additions to the idea of a 3.6 swap that aren't all that realistic. If you're tracking your 88 and you're happy with the brakes and the suspension (no fade, adequate handling), then you're still going to be able to corner and stop just fine with a 3.6 in the engine bay. The weight of the two engines, as they're installed in a car like yours, are pretty close to equal. As your driving improves, you might want to modify the suspension no matter what engine you've got in there -- but horsepower doesn't make your car go through a corner and faster or any slower.
I used to say that the 3.6 swap was by far the most economical way to add power to most 911s. But 8 years ago, I was able to get a low-mile 3.6 for 5K and the jump in power from my previous 2.2-liter T motor was substantial. Used 964 motors aren't getting any younger, and they're also (oddly) getting more expensive. But then, rebuilding a 3.2 is also getting pricey. With a Carrera, you're in the toughest region, honestly, for bang-for-buck power improvements.
In your shoes, I might look at an extensive upgrading of your car's 20-year-old (I'm assuming stock) suspension. Done well, it would still be a lot cheaper than a motor swap/rebuild, and if you track the car a lot, it's probably going to make a bigger difference than 50 more horsepower.
12-20-2008, 01:04 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Absolutely! The Carrera is a blast on the track, I just get sick of everybody blowing by me on the straights.
Could you tell me a little bit about your engine build? What did it run you? What have you done in terms of suspension upgrades?
Thanks!
Could you tell me a little bit about your engine build? What did it run you? What have you done in terms of suspension upgrades?
Thanks!
12-20-2008, 04:32 PM
#20
Drifting
3.4 mahle 9.8 to one jugs
~ 1MM taken out of pistons for valve pockets
Single plug
Magnecor Wires
extrude hone intake
993ss cams (Dougherty Racing Cams)
arp rod bolts
Supertech Head Studs
enlarged throttle body
competition springs and retainers (EBS)
993 Flipped Flange Heat Exchangers
MK 993 Bischof flange muffler
Steve Wong custom chip to pull it all together
Lowered to 24.25" in the front and 24 3/8th's in the rear
993 Brakes on front Wilwood 309 MM Rotors and 993 rear on 930 rotors.
Poly Bronze A-arm Bushings, Turbo Tie Rods, Bilstein HD's.
Do you have to do emissions? Doubt the 993SS cams would pass emissions.
It has power = but most of it is more early "S" type - available above 4500 rpms. The torque curve is pretty flat though.
~ 1MM taken out of pistons for valve pockets
Single plug
Magnecor Wires
extrude hone intake
993ss cams (Dougherty Racing Cams)
arp rod bolts
Supertech Head Studs
enlarged throttle body
competition springs and retainers (EBS)
993 Flipped Flange Heat Exchangers
MK 993 Bischof flange muffler
Steve Wong custom chip to pull it all together
Lowered to 24.25" in the front and 24 3/8th's in the rear
993 Brakes on front Wilwood 309 MM Rotors and 993 rear on 930 rotors.
Poly Bronze A-arm Bushings, Turbo Tie Rods, Bilstein HD's.
Do you have to do emissions? Doubt the 993SS cams would pass emissions.
It has power = but most of it is more early "S" type - available above 4500 rpms. The torque curve is pretty flat though.
12-20-2008, 05:11 PM
#21
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22 years ago I gave my grandparent’s 1956 Chevy hardtop to my 18 year old son to do with what he liked. I regret that decision several times a year. You are fortunate to be a favorite son of a supporting father; however, his support may not mean that it is the best choice.
Keep in mind that your father’s car may pass down to your child and maybe a grandchild,
should thing go well and you have someone to appreciate what you have.
If I were in your shoes, I would
1. call Steve. I would insist on paying him for his advice (it did not come free to him and may be worth thousands to you). I did this with Tom at Mayos in Dallas and it was an excellent experience and showed him the respect that he deserved.
2. Keep any and all of the stock engine/trans if a swap is done. Set it aside and pickle it in a proper manner.
3. If you are able to keep the car and it does pass to an 18 or 19 year old, you may want a little less of a fire breather for them, than what you require.
4. Be aware that mortgage failures are projected to triple over the nest few years and that there is still little transparency with the financial institutions on book losses that have not been written down. After 150 billion into AIG, at the first of last week they said there was another 10 billion of problems, at the end of the week it was 30 billion. I suggest they are a key indicator to watch as a portent of things to come. Timing is everything and I suggest that we may be an elevated level now.
5. If I were to do the swap, I would pay shipping both ways and let Steve do it. You may find it is cheaper to pay $1200 in shipping and have it done right than be constantly surprised.
Keep in mind that your father’s car may pass down to your child and maybe a grandchild,
should thing go well and you have someone to appreciate what you have.
If I were in your shoes, I would
1. call Steve. I would insist on paying him for his advice (it did not come free to him and may be worth thousands to you). I did this with Tom at Mayos in Dallas and it was an excellent experience and showed him the respect that he deserved.
2. Keep any and all of the stock engine/trans if a swap is done. Set it aside and pickle it in a proper manner.
3. If you are able to keep the car and it does pass to an 18 or 19 year old, you may want a little less of a fire breather for them, than what you require.
4. Be aware that mortgage failures are projected to triple over the nest few years and that there is still little transparency with the financial institutions on book losses that have not been written down. After 150 billion into AIG, at the first of last week they said there was another 10 billion of problems, at the end of the week it was 30 billion. I suggest they are a key indicator to watch as a portent of things to come. Timing is everything and I suggest that we may be an elevated level now.
5. If I were to do the swap, I would pay shipping both ways and let Steve do it. You may find it is cheaper to pay $1200 in shipping and have it done right than be constantly surprised.
12-20-2008, 08:43 PM
#22
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Hey there,
BTDT, my 2.7 motor in my beautiful matching numbers 1975 911S vaporized, as is SOP of the mag 7R case. The cost of rebuilding back to OEM stock, was as much as the 3.6 transplant, sooo, I did the transplant.
This is what happens in order of events:
You will be laughing hysterically as you first test drive the car. Just the sheer torque and power from what was, is exhilirating and will make you giddy.
You will tell yourself, that the engine weight differential between your 3.2 and the 3.6 (roughly 40 lbs)
is no big deal, and the car is better than ever.
You will take it to the track and be amazed.
But, after awhile, you will begin to sense that the engine is overwhelming the suspension. You might even see some on track photos that verify this in the posture of the car.
You will decide to call an expert, someone who has done a ton of these, to get advice, (I used Steve Weiner @ Rennsport Systems)
He will ask you a series of questions regarding your car and its specifics. Then he will set you up with the necessary t-bars, sways, shocks etc.
Once you do this, the car will be amazing.
You will go to the track and be amazed.
Then you will notice the brakes are not up for the power and suspension.
You will talk to Steve, and he will tell you to use the 930 brakes from the car you have, or buy his kit.
At this point, you have now got the balance of power, suspension and brakes = porsche.
Beyond that, aero package, Motons, tires and wheels to put all that power and handling to use are nice to have.
I've been down this entire route, except I had F*cking idiots who had never done a conversion and called themselves a shop do the initial 3.6 transplant- and ultimately, a little thing, like they did not swap out the 2.7 oil temp sensor, thus the motor ran much hotter than indicated, cooked the valve guides, and Steve ended up doing a total engine rebuild, the correct way.
HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE THIS BEFORE AND HAS A GREAT REPUTATION FOR BUILDING THESE AND OTHER RACE CARS DO IT ONCE, SO YOU ONLY SPEND THE MONEY ONCE!
No regrets, I love this car, i would not trade it for a GT3, or other iron out there.
It is light, 2330 lbs, 305 hp, 285 torque, nimble, predictable.
You certainly won't have to worry about people passing you...LOL!
These are very special cars, as those who have them will attest.
They are not for the faint of heart, and yes, you will spend as much as a used GT3 will cost you.
But it will be a fantastic journey, and the car will be unique to your specifications, tailor made.
Hope this helps.
Nick
BTDT, my 2.7 motor in my beautiful matching numbers 1975 911S vaporized, as is SOP of the mag 7R case. The cost of rebuilding back to OEM stock, was as much as the 3.6 transplant, sooo, I did the transplant.
This is what happens in order of events:
You will be laughing hysterically as you first test drive the car. Just the sheer torque and power from what was, is exhilirating and will make you giddy.
You will tell yourself, that the engine weight differential between your 3.2 and the 3.6 (roughly 40 lbs)
is no big deal, and the car is better than ever.
You will take it to the track and be amazed.
But, after awhile, you will begin to sense that the engine is overwhelming the suspension. You might even see some on track photos that verify this in the posture of the car.
You will decide to call an expert, someone who has done a ton of these, to get advice, (I used Steve Weiner @ Rennsport Systems)
He will ask you a series of questions regarding your car and its specifics. Then he will set you up with the necessary t-bars, sways, shocks etc.
Once you do this, the car will be amazing.
You will go to the track and be amazed.
Then you will notice the brakes are not up for the power and suspension.
You will talk to Steve, and he will tell you to use the 930 brakes from the car you have, or buy his kit.
At this point, you have now got the balance of power, suspension and brakes = porsche.
Beyond that, aero package, Motons, tires and wheels to put all that power and handling to use are nice to have.
I've been down this entire route, except I had F*cking idiots who had never done a conversion and called themselves a shop do the initial 3.6 transplant- and ultimately, a little thing, like they did not swap out the 2.7 oil temp sensor, thus the motor ran much hotter than indicated, cooked the valve guides, and Steve ended up doing a total engine rebuild, the correct way.
HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS DONE THIS BEFORE AND HAS A GREAT REPUTATION FOR BUILDING THESE AND OTHER RACE CARS DO IT ONCE, SO YOU ONLY SPEND THE MONEY ONCE!
No regrets, I love this car, i would not trade it for a GT3, or other iron out there.
It is light, 2330 lbs, 305 hp, 285 torque, nimble, predictable.
You certainly won't have to worry about people passing you...LOL!
These are very special cars, as those who have them will attest.
They are not for the faint of heart, and yes, you will spend as much as a used GT3 will cost you.
But it will be a fantastic journey, and the car will be unique to your specifications, tailor made.
Hope this helps.
Nick
12-20-2008, 09:52 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
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Wish I were in your shoes Todd. Absolutely beautiful porker you got there. I have struggled with so many ideas about what I would do with my car...Its got to be a hard deciding what to do with your dads gem.
My dream car build would end up something very close to the BlueMeanie. It was originally a 911SC, now has a 3.6 conversion that has 996TT speed. Here is a link to some of his build. Do not ask the price.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ue-meanie.html
My dream car build would end up something very close to the BlueMeanie. It was originally a 911SC, now has a 3.6 conversion that has 996TT speed. Here is a link to some of his build. Do not ask the price.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ue-meanie.html
12-20-2008, 11:27 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Wow! Can't thank everybody enough for their thoughts and input. First thing is first, need to sell my 930 and M3. In the meantime will continue asking questions, reading people's responses, and talking to some people that have some experience with this.
My two reservations are: 1) taking a clean, well-cared for, close-to-original, and sentimentally valuable car, and turning it into a hot rod. 2) Starting the project only to find out a could've bought myself a 6GT3 by the end of it.
Very fun to play with these ideas, however. Keep the comments coming. Thanks!
My two reservations are: 1) taking a clean, well-cared for, close-to-original, and sentimentally valuable car, and turning it into a hot rod. 2) Starting the project only to find out a could've bought myself a 6GT3 by the end of it.
Very fun to play with these ideas, however. Keep the comments coming. Thanks!
12-21-2008, 12:28 AM
#25
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12-21-2008, 12:44 AM
#26
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A GT3 is a totally different animal than one of these.
these conversion- cars are lightweight, without driver's aids, and are very interactive with the driver.
Very physical.
A GT3 is a phenomenal machine out of the box, and to a certain point, driveable by anyone.
But, to really drive a GT3, you have to go scary fast, which, 75% of the people who own them never do.
For every four GT3s I'm on the track with, only one will really be "driven", and that is the one there is NO WAY to catch.
The other 3? are in the rearview mirror...LOL!
these conversion- cars are lightweight, without driver's aids, and are very interactive with the driver.
Very physical.
A GT3 is a phenomenal machine out of the box, and to a certain point, driveable by anyone.
But, to really drive a GT3, you have to go scary fast, which, 75% of the people who own them never do.
For every four GT3s I'm on the track with, only one will really be "driven", and that is the one there is NO WAY to catch.
The other 3? are in the rearview mirror...LOL!
12-21-2008, 02:21 AM
#28
Your motor only has 126k....that's nothin for a 3.2...You should consider the suspension and possibly a close ratio gearbox...that certainly is a substantial performance enhancement and although not cheap...its cheaper than a motor rebuild or a swap..
12-21-2008, 02:23 AM
#29
By the way, Jack...where do you hide here in LA, I'd love to see your car...I dont know what part of town you are in...I'm in H'wood area...so off to VCR tomorrow and may do the TRE 1/1 drive....You?
