Turbo Dave

What is the best (budget, not cost no-object) upgrade path for a\'73T with M calipers? I'm planning on using for driver's ed & club events, not daily driver. Would better brake fluid, SS lines, & track/street pads do the trick? How about adding ventilation? How about rear brakes?

Thanks, all

JackOlsen

You upgrade the fronts with either SC or Carrera calipers and rotors. As I understand it, the rear M calipers were used all the way to the end of the Carrera run.

Cookie Porsche

Morning Turbo Dave,
Cheapest upgrade would be braided hoses f+r, racing brake fluid with a high dry/wet boiling point (Castrol SRF/ Motul 600 or similar, but NOT a standard fancy-name fluid!), a proper brake pad f+r (Pagid Blue is streets ahead in my book) and as you mention plenty of cool air to the front for track events - not autocross! The reason here is that the pads are running too cool on short events. It is easy to make up a ducting system, otherwise spend the $ and buy a ready system.

The M caliper is actually fine for the early cars, assuming that the calipers/discs are in good health.

If you decide that more brake power is required you can do as per Jack with SC/Carrera calipers, but these are expensive. A 'cheap' option is std Boxster calipers (4-pot) with adapters and Carrera discs (24mm) for the front. The rear remains std but for the above pad upgrade. Nice, easy and great stoping power.

Enjoy your 73T. Tom.

Bill Gregory

I have a slightly different view. Add the stainless brake lines only if you're going to inspect them on a regular basis, and consider replacing them yearly. They are not, as some vendors suggest, a put on and leave on for years and years option. The reason is you can't see the condition of the hose under the stainless braid, so you have to inspect for any sign of pending failure. Otherwise, rubber lines work fine, and I doubt you'd notice the difference, at least starting out on the track.

For brake fluid, many use ATE SuperBlue or the gold version (same stuff, different colors), around $9/liter. I get mine from OG Racing.

OG Racing, and others, have brake cooling kits which have a scoop that fits under the a-arm with hose leading to another piece that replaces the front backing plate. If you go that route, and you have Fuchs, make sure you get the piece, or make it yourself, which goes in the hub to prevent the cooling air from flowing out past the wheel.

Tom suggested the SC/Carrera calipers are expensive, and perhaps they are in South Africa, and they may be new. However, enough people have upgraded their brakes that used calipers are not expensive. They are easy to rebuild (rebuild kit is around $15 per wheel), or you can buy rebuilt calipers from Vertex and others, trading in the old calipers.(Heck, I have a set of rebuilt SC calipers, made available by my upgrade to Turbo brakes, that can be for sale, if you want).

The Boxster monoblocks use Carrera rotors, and there has been evidence of the Boxster calipers overpowering the Carrera rotors on the track, causing quickly boiling brake fluid and cracked rotors. One vendor doesn't offer the upgrade anymore. So, yes it's an option which is probably fine for the street, but proceed with caution for track usage.

Bill Verburg

I agree with Bill G. amd suggest an upgrade to any of the following -83"A" or "S" or 84-89 "A". All will require new struts with the proper 3.5" mounting ears, but due to the age of your car new/newer struts are probably in the cards anyway. The 84-89 "A" has the additional advantage of using 4mm thicker rotors(282x24mm vs 282x20mm). They will last longer in a DE before boiling fluid. All of the listed calipers use the same 48mm pistons and will work properly with your rear "M" calipers.

Turbo Dave

Thanks for the help, everyone. Jack & Bill, you have some serious rides, I'm sure you use a lot more braking power than I'll ever need. I've had your pictures on my screensaver for months, Jack, goading me into finding my early 911.

It seems that caliper upgrades will be nice when I do a complete suspension upgrade, in the meantime I'll follow your suggestions on fluid, pads, cooling & SS lines with frequent maint./replacements.

Howard

Turbo Dave,


I recently upgraded my sc brakes to 993TT calipers and rotors front, and 3.6 turbo rear
calipers and 930 turbo rotors. It was a bit of work but it works great.....too good. I installed a Tilton proportioning valve to balance the fr to rr braking and I still lock them up. My advice is....replace the rubber brake lines with non-braided, upgrade to a racing grade fluid, also go with new pads, maybe Pagid, I use orange but my car is track only, they work best when heated up. The stock brake setup should be fine for your needs until you go full race......good luck!

Bill Gregory

When I had stock SC brakes, I used Pagid Orange pads on and off the track. No squeeling, just good braking. Before that I used Performance Friction "Z Rated" pads which were a fine dual purpose pad - the Pagids are better on the track, though. Anyway, with the dual piston Turbo brakes, the Pagid's squeeeeelllllll unmercifully. Still great stopping power at the track, but unusable on the street, unfortunately.

One other thing to consider is if you will be using your 911 for PCA club racing events, be sure you look over the rules on the PCA web site (www.pca.org). In most cases, upgrading brakes puts you into a "prepared" category, which may or may not be OK. If you're looking at SCCA or POC events, same advice holds - check the rules. It may not change what you want to do, but at least you avoid a potential surprise down the road.

Cookie Porsche

Gentlemen,
I agree with BG in large, but then I would assume that regular brake inspection would always be the norm on a track car. My reason for suggesting the braided hoses is that they reduce the pressure lost in a rubber hose during track conditions and that they have better heat resistance. Of course they must be checked regularly, but so must the rubber hoses. Lastly the brake hoses should always be purchased from a reputable race store and not from a discount vendor.

I've never tried the ATE SuperBlue, but I do know that it is a very good fluid. The Motul or Castrol does provide a higher boiling point, and will most definitely extract the maximum performance from your brakes.

As mentioned, by all, cooling is essential in any application.

As BG correctly highlights, I'm quoting African prices on new calipers. Anyway, my reason for suggesting the (standard) Boxster caliper is that the newer monoblock 4-pot design is superior to older units (less caliper flex, less weight, evenly distributed pad pressure, better heat dissipation and of course the Porsche logo . Furthermore, using the 24mm Carrera disc with adequate brake air ducting, works fine for most.

We seem to agree on Pagid. You do say that the car is intended for fun, not street; so don't worry about noise and dust. The Pagid's are a bit rough on the discs (rotors?) but nothing too serious. I haven't got that much noise from the Pagid Blue, but the Oranges do squeeeelll a bit.

My last breath. You can rebuild SC/Carrera calipers, but remember that they are 20 years old, and that you do get calipers that flexes, especially if they have been rebuild by some monkey (Africa again!). I have seen calipers leaking beyond any repair.

. . . and check the club rules before doing anything.

Brakes are like girls, the better it gets the more you pay, and always treat them with respect.

Best regards (and stopping), Tom
911SC Club Race Car (w/ 944/2 Turbo brakes)
911SC (w/ Boxster brakes)
911 Race Car (w/ 993TT brakes)
Also had 911's with standard brakes!

Turbo Dave

Great info, there is certainly a lot to consider.

What about brake pad alternatives? I see Pagids listed at about $130/end, compared to about $26 for Mintex, $35 for Ferodo. It sounds like Pagid is the best, but is it worth it to a beginning DE driver with 'M' brakes, or should I wait until I can get some uprated calipers, venting etc.?

If alternatives are acceptable, what is the (second) best street/track pad? Or, should I stop whining and just pony up for Pagids?

Bill Gregory

David,

You can go to DE with stock pads, especially when starting out. You won't be going fast enough to wear them down in one day. However, they will wear much faster than on the street. I really liked the Performance Friction "Z Rated" pads as a dual street/track pad and they were around $45 per axle. Better braking and longer lasting than street pads. There's a Hawk (HP or blue?) that does much the same, and I'm sure Mintex and Ferado have similar pads. Some like the Axxis Metal Masters for the track, at about $30 per axle.

You don't need to jump on the Pagids to start with. Yes, they are expensive (reminds me of a Monty Python skit about "you think you've got it bad" when considering that Pagids for 930 Turbo brakes are $175/axle), and yes, they are very good on the track. But to start out, you don't need them.

Oh, and one point that Tom mentioned. For clarity, when I say rebuild a caliper, that's only the rubber pieces surrounding the pistons. Never take them all the way apart unless you really, really know what you're doing, as they will, as Tom said, leak, leak, leak.