OT...fuel costs
06-04-2008, 03:26 PM
#1
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OT...fuel costs
OK, is anyone contemplating getting rid of, or has already gotten rid of, an SUV or pick-up with a big V8 (F 250, Tahoe, Suburban, Hummer, etc.), and have you discovered that near-perfect vehicle is/was only worth pennies on the dollars that you thought it was worth? In other words, you learn that your $38K, 2-year-old Tahoe with only 12K miles is now only worth a paltry $15K on a trade in...
To take it a step further, has anyone put their more economical 911 "toy" into daily service, instead of using the guzzler for daily business?
Last edited by Peter Zimmermann; 06-04-2008 at 03:49 PM.
06-04-2008, 03:54 PM
#2
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Well, it's been a long time coming. The same thing happened before Pete, ushering the death knell for the Musclecars & Imperials, etc.
Personally I think SUVs are ludicrous for most of their owners... Other than feeling empowered & being able to crush someone they hit when they're painting their nails, reading the paper, applying makeup, talking on the cellphone, what can an SUV do for a typical soccermom that a wagon can't?
I have a 7-pass x-length Montana minivan, which was handy & "necessary" (ok, justifyable) when the mrs. ran a daycare from our house. I have been after her for almost 2 years now to ditch the van & go with something like a Prius, since the daycare's now closed. She won't. 80+% of the cabin is not used at any given time, short of the rare occurrence when she allows herself to be talked into being the chauffer for a cub scout outing, etc.
In the meantime, she's getting 20-22mpg on her normal commute. I can HALVE her gas usage with a Prius lease for $260 / mo. + $100 / mo (example) in fuel, for $360 total. New car! Currently, her van's $334 / mo., & she's using over $200 / mo in fuel, for $534 total. Almost $200 / mo in savings, just using a more appropriate vehicle. $200! That's a lot of mods for the Porsche!
Personally I think SUVs are ludicrous for most of their owners... Other than feeling empowered & being able to crush someone they hit when they're painting their nails, reading the paper, applying makeup, talking on the cellphone, what can an SUV do for a typical soccermom that a wagon can't?
I have a 7-pass x-length Montana minivan, which was handy & "necessary" (ok, justifyable) when the mrs. ran a daycare from our house. I have been after her for almost 2 years now to ditch the van & go with something like a Prius, since the daycare's now closed. She won't. 80+% of the cabin is not used at any given time, short of the rare occurrence when she allows herself to be talked into being the chauffer for a cub scout outing, etc.
In the meantime, she's getting 20-22mpg on her normal commute. I can HALVE her gas usage with a Prius lease for $260 / mo. + $100 / mo (example) in fuel, for $360 total. New car! Currently, her van's $334 / mo., & she's using over $200 / mo in fuel, for $534 total. Almost $200 / mo in savings, just using a more appropriate vehicle. $200! That's a lot of mods for the Porsche!
06-04-2008, 04:33 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
In europe they don't have the long distance driving to work like we do....
06-04-2008, 04:40 PM
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Well, it's been a long time coming. The same thing happened before Pete, ushering the death knell for the Musclecars & Imperials, etc.
Personally I think SUVs are ludicrous for most of their owners... Other than feeling empowered & being able to crush someone they hit when they're painting their nails, reading the paper, applying makeup, talking on the cellphone, what can an SUV do for a typical soccermom that a wagon can't?
I have a 7-pass x-length Montana minivan, which was handy & "necessary" (ok, justifyable) when the mrs. ran a daycare from our house. I have been after her for almost 2 years now to ditch the van & go with something like a Prius, since the daycare's now closed. She won't. 80+% of the cabin is not used at any given time, short of the rare occurrence when she allows herself to be talked into being the chauffer for a cub scout outing, etc.
In the meantime, she's getting 20-22mpg on her normal commute. I can HALVE her gas usage with a Prius lease for $260 / mo. + $100 / mo (example) in fuel, for $360 total. New car! Currently, her van's $334 / mo., & she's using over $200 / mo in fuel, for $534 total. Almost $200 / mo in savings, just using a more appropriate vehicle. $200! That's a lot of mods for the Porsche!
Personally I think SUVs are ludicrous for most of their owners... Other than feeling empowered & being able to crush someone they hit when they're painting their nails, reading the paper, applying makeup, talking on the cellphone, what can an SUV do for a typical soccermom that a wagon can't?
I have a 7-pass x-length Montana minivan, which was handy & "necessary" (ok, justifyable) when the mrs. ran a daycare from our house. I have been after her for almost 2 years now to ditch the van & go with something like a Prius, since the daycare's now closed. She won't. 80+% of the cabin is not used at any given time, short of the rare occurrence when she allows herself to be talked into being the chauffer for a cub scout outing, etc.
In the meantime, she's getting 20-22mpg on her normal commute. I can HALVE her gas usage with a Prius lease for $260 / mo. + $100 / mo (example) in fuel, for $360 total. New car! Currently, her van's $334 / mo., & she's using over $200 / mo in fuel, for $534 total. Almost $200 / mo in savings, just using a more appropriate vehicle. $200! That's a lot of mods for the Porsche!
06-04-2008, 05:11 PM
#6
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I hate to be the one to say this, but I have always felt that the last 20 years have not been good to any vehicle coming out of detroit when it comes to depreciation. My x-girlfriend drove a 1996 Pontiac Sunfire, which contained an economical I-4 engine. She couldn't give it away in 2003 with 60k miles on the clock.
I think perception plays a huge role as to what people are buying these days. People think they will save real dollars buying a car with better mileage, but the truth is, they are doing it for style and societal reasons more than anything else. The proof is that most people who are buying efficient cars only save gas money after years of ownership.
I digress, however, and must give credit to what you are alluding to. The used 911 seems to make a great deal of sense in today's market. You have minute depreciation, decent gas mileage and good performance.
I think perception plays a huge role as to what people are buying these days. People think they will save real dollars buying a car with better mileage, but the truth is, they are doing it for style and societal reasons more than anything else. The proof is that most people who are buying efficient cars only save gas money after years of ownership.
I digress, however, and must give credit to what you are alluding to. The used 911 seems to make a great deal of sense in today's market. You have minute depreciation, decent gas mileage and good performance.
06-04-2008, 05:31 PM
#7
Well, it's been a long time coming. The same thing happened before Pete, ushering the death knell for the Musclecars & Imperials, etc.
Personally I think SUVs are ludicrous for most of their owners... Other than feeling empowered & being able to crush someone they hit when they're painting their nails, reading the paper, applying makeup, talking on the cellphone, what can an SUV do for a typical soccermom that a wagon can't?
I have a 7-pass x-length Montana minivan, which was handy & "necessary" (ok, justifyable) when the mrs. ran a daycare from our house. I have been after her for almost 2 years now to ditch the van & go with something like a Prius, since the daycare's now closed. She won't. 80+% of the cabin is not used at any given time, short of the rare occurrence when she allows herself to be talked into being the chauffer for a cub scout outing, etc.
In the meantime, she's getting 20-22mpg on her normal commute. I can HALVE her gas usage with a Prius lease for $260 / mo. + $100 / mo (example) in fuel, for $360 total. New car! Currently, her van's $334 / mo., & she's using over $200 / mo in fuel, for $534 total. Almost $200 / mo in savings, just using a more appropriate vehicle. $200! That's a lot of mods for the Porsche!
Personally I think SUVs are ludicrous for most of their owners... Other than feeling empowered & being able to crush someone they hit when they're painting their nails, reading the paper, applying makeup, talking on the cellphone, what can an SUV do for a typical soccermom that a wagon can't?
I have a 7-pass x-length Montana minivan, which was handy & "necessary" (ok, justifyable) when the mrs. ran a daycare from our house. I have been after her for almost 2 years now to ditch the van & go with something like a Prius, since the daycare's now closed. She won't. 80+% of the cabin is not used at any given time, short of the rare occurrence when she allows herself to be talked into being the chauffer for a cub scout outing, etc.
In the meantime, she's getting 20-22mpg on her normal commute. I can HALVE her gas usage with a Prius lease for $260 / mo. + $100 / mo (example) in fuel, for $360 total. New car! Currently, her van's $334 / mo., & she's using over $200 / mo in fuel, for $534 total. Almost $200 / mo in savings, just using a more appropriate vehicle. $200! That's a lot of mods for the Porsche!
Brett
Trending Topics
06-04-2008, 05:43 PM
#8
Drifting
I somewhat think that up here there is a bit less demand for hugmungo SUVs. This is why you can get great cars such as a acura 1.6 EL (nothing more than a fully loaded civic) which are great deals all around but are unavailable in the US.
Murphy is right that hybrids are just a fashion, fuel costs are only a small part of the total cost of ownership. A hybrid only pays back for itself after quite a while and who knows how the resell costs of a hybrid will compare to a normal power plant. It's just that fuel costs are the only costs owners see on a daily basis. Not to many purchasers look at insurances costs and resell values before purchase. Also, like Murphy said, hybrids are a fashion much like SUVs, but it looks like SUVs are out and hybrids are in. At least the environment will benefit somewhat.
I think part of the problem was in the past if cars that were smaller and more fuel efficient came with almost no options, no toys, and were 'cheap'. People naturally went to the bigger SUVs because they wanted all the bells and whistles. Only now are we seeing smaller cars coming with all the toys we love. Hopefully automakers realize this and offer more with their smaller cars. Again my example of the 1.6 EL. It is essentially a Acura baged civic that comes with leather and a bunch of other goodies you would expect from a Acura. Guess what....it sold well.
Just a thought or two.
-matt
Murphy is right that hybrids are just a fashion, fuel costs are only a small part of the total cost of ownership. A hybrid only pays back for itself after quite a while and who knows how the resell costs of a hybrid will compare to a normal power plant. It's just that fuel costs are the only costs owners see on a daily basis. Not to many purchasers look at insurances costs and resell values before purchase. Also, like Murphy said, hybrids are a fashion much like SUVs, but it looks like SUVs are out and hybrids are in. At least the environment will benefit somewhat.
I think part of the problem was in the past if cars that were smaller and more fuel efficient came with almost no options, no toys, and were 'cheap'. People naturally went to the bigger SUVs because they wanted all the bells and whistles. Only now are we seeing smaller cars coming with all the toys we love. Hopefully automakers realize this and offer more with their smaller cars. Again my example of the 1.6 EL. It is essentially a Acura baged civic that comes with leather and a bunch of other goodies you would expect from a Acura. Guess what....it sold well.
Just a thought or two.
-matt
06-04-2008, 05:50 PM
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I'd like to chime to say we are all getting royally screwed by somebody with these gas prices.
Gas prices have risen 50% in 1 year. "They" say it's increased global demand. Has global demand risen 50% in the last year? I think not. Global demand is fueled by population growth and the population of the earth didn't just spike 50% in the last 10 months.
Yes fuel prices should be rising, gradually with population growth. The spike we've seen since last year, from an economic perspective, is artificial and unjust.
Gas prices have risen 50% in 1 year. "They" say it's increased global demand. Has global demand risen 50% in the last year? I think not. Global demand is fueled by population growth and the population of the earth didn't just spike 50% in the last 10 months.
Yes fuel prices should be rising, gradually with population growth. The spike we've seen since last year, from an economic perspective, is artificial and unjust.
06-04-2008, 05:54 PM
#11
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Murphy is right that hybrids are just a fashion, fuel costs are only a small part of the total cost of ownership. A hybrid only pays back for itself after quite a while and who knows how the resell costs of a hybrid will compare to a normal power plant. It's just that fuel costs are the only costs owners see on a daily basis. Not to many purchasers look at insurances costs and resell values before purchase. Also, like Murphy said, hybrids are a fashion much like SUVs, but it looks like SUVs are out and hybrids are in. At least the environment will benefit somewhat....
-matt
Murphy is right that hybrids are just a fashion, fuel costs are only a small part of the total cost of ownership. A hybrid only pays back for itself after quite a while and who knows how the resell costs of a hybrid will compare to a normal power plant. It's just that fuel costs are the only costs owners see on a daily basis. Not to many purchasers look at insurances costs and resell values before purchase. Also, like Murphy said, hybrids are a fashion much like SUVs, but it looks like SUVs are out and hybrids are in. At least the environment will benefit somewhat....
-matt
Not to mention what costs you incur with maintenance and/or batteries 8 or 10 years down. And the environmental impact of mfg AND disposal of those batteries?? Anyone want to figure that into the equation? Certainly not the greenies who are pushing this newest of fads.
And on that note, too, this fad is more insidious IMHO: for many, they feel like they are on some higher moral plane of existence BECAUSE they own a hybrid. Implication? If you slobs would just stop being so selfish, you, too, would buy a car that helps save the planet...yada yada. Not speculation on my part. I've heard it. Repeated by real people. Some celebs, yes, but by "regular" folks too. It disgusts me that driving "green" defines you as a "better" person in their minds. I can only wonder how much thought these folks have put into how much energy it takes to build these cars, not to mention the unanswered question of what to do with the batteries, and those unintended "costs" and consequences.
Sure, drive a hybrid if you want to save fuel costs...fine. Just don't "sell it" as the salvation of mankind.
...rant over. Man, I feel like grabbing a RibEye
Edward
06-04-2008, 06:08 PM
#12
Drifting
I think the answer is just to get smaller cars, car pool, take the bus...etc. Personally, yes I drive a Porsche which is definitely not the best but my winter car is a 10yr old honda civic which in my mind is just a great car.
06-04-2008, 07:04 PM
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I'm keeping my F150 Supercrew for hauling, towing and large group outings. It sits much of the time, but it can't be beat when I need it for the above. The Prius is certainly a fashion/image car - but it's actually fun to drive with all of the visual displays etc. I don't own one, but I wouldn't rule it out.
I visit the Bay Area somewhat regularly and get a kick out of the Prius parked in front of the 10,000 square foot houses with the sign "Another Palo Altan for renewable energy". After all, they're using compact fluorescent bulbs AND heating the pool with solar panels. We all like to wear our causes on our sleeves, or in our driveways or in our lawns...
I visit the Bay Area somewhat regularly and get a kick out of the Prius parked in front of the 10,000 square foot houses with the sign "Another Palo Altan for renewable energy". After all, they're using compact fluorescent bulbs AND heating the pool with solar panels. We all like to wear our causes on our sleeves, or in our driveways or in our lawns...
06-04-2008, 08:08 PM
#14
Instructor
Pete,
Big trucks and SUV's are taking a huge hit right now, depreciation like you mentioned is not unusual. It is normally pretty substantial, driven by big rebates on new cars and cheap finance deals, but is exacerbated lately by higher gas prices.
Oil prices are determined by supply and demand, pure and simple. And demand is driven by growth in economic activity, not just population growth. World producers are pretty much running full tilt and China and India are emerging as huge new users. Combined with the asinine production restrictions on oil production in the US (ie no drilling in ANWAR, or off the coasts) it isn't going to get any better any time soon.
Gasoline prices are affected by the price of the underlying raw material, plus demand, plus state and federal tax rates, plus state and regional formulation regulations,and refining capacity. So if you don't like $4.00 gal gas, don't whine about the oil companies, it's our state and federal governments causing the majority of the problem.
As soon as Al Gore says he'll take all the expired hybrid batteries and put them on his front yard, I'll think they're a good idea. Ethanol from corn is a joke and costs more energy than it creates, and makes my tortillas more expensive.
Here's my energy policy--
Remove the restrictions on drilling in ANWAR and off the California and Florida coasts.
Start building nuclear plants (one of the few things the French get right besides a nice 95 Bordeaux)
Start building Gasoline refineries.
Ease the EPA requirements on diesel technology.
Stick a wind farm off Ted Kenney's house on Cape Cod.
Cancel the recently enacted ethanol mandates.
Take the Army and the Marines out of Iraq and invade Brazil. Huge newly discovered oil reserves, cheap sugar to make ethanol and better beaches.
And drive the hell out of your 911!
Big trucks and SUV's are taking a huge hit right now, depreciation like you mentioned is not unusual. It is normally pretty substantial, driven by big rebates on new cars and cheap finance deals, but is exacerbated lately by higher gas prices.
Oil prices are determined by supply and demand, pure and simple. And demand is driven by growth in economic activity, not just population growth. World producers are pretty much running full tilt and China and India are emerging as huge new users. Combined with the asinine production restrictions on oil production in the US (ie no drilling in ANWAR, or off the coasts) it isn't going to get any better any time soon.
Gasoline prices are affected by the price of the underlying raw material, plus demand, plus state and federal tax rates, plus state and regional formulation regulations,and refining capacity. So if you don't like $4.00 gal gas, don't whine about the oil companies, it's our state and federal governments causing the majority of the problem.
As soon as Al Gore says he'll take all the expired hybrid batteries and put them on his front yard, I'll think they're a good idea. Ethanol from corn is a joke and costs more energy than it creates, and makes my tortillas more expensive.
Here's my energy policy--
Remove the restrictions on drilling in ANWAR and off the California and Florida coasts.
Start building nuclear plants (one of the few things the French get right besides a nice 95 Bordeaux)
Start building Gasoline refineries.
Ease the EPA requirements on diesel technology.
Stick a wind farm off Ted Kenney's house on Cape Cod.
Cancel the recently enacted ethanol mandates.
Take the Army and the Marines out of Iraq and invade Brazil. Huge newly discovered oil reserves, cheap sugar to make ethanol and better beaches.
And drive the hell out of your 911!
06-04-2008, 08:34 PM
#15
Addict
Fred take a deap breath and relax a sec. Man, I'm not good for the direction this is going. At the first of every month I get a check from my employer for $400. It covers the first 1,000 miles I drive. Every mile after that I take off my own taxes. Driving=FREE. Understand. Actually allthe cars are paid off so we are getting paid by the government to drive. Does that **** you off? My Chevy astro at say 16 MPG is my daily driver. My wife has a Ford E350 super duty 15 passenger van that get 10-12 MPG (I think we have 10 seats in it now). I have a Nissan Frontier that may get 24 MPG that sits and rotts. I have no idea what the gas requirements are for the 911. At this point if I did use the 911 daily for work it would just **** off my customers to see it.