OT...fuel costs
06-05-2008, 01:25 AM
#46
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06-05-2008, 01:27 AM
#47
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Michael: That's my dilemma - if my SUV is worth only half its original sell price, 1.5 years and only 10K miles later, what could it possibly be worth at 4 years old. If it's worth $12K it might be worth hanging on to, but if it's worth $6K at that point the gas savings will have made the decision to get rid of it correct (I can still bank $24K at this point). What I'm having problems getting my head around is how can a $50K new vehicle be worth almost nothing four years later? Is it VW, or the world economy, or is everybody so scared of $10K transmission replacements done by somewhat-inept dealer mechanics, or $15K engine swaps because manufacturers won't supply repair parts, or is it that the average consumer is so scared of skyrocketing gas prices they won't do the math and pay $30K for an as-new $50K vehicle that gets crappy mileage. Jeez, even GM and Ford are shutting down truck/SUV plants - is that historic or what?
06-05-2008, 01:38 AM
#48
I don't think your Tahoe will be worth $6k at 4 years. Some economists are saying that immediately prior to the US Presidential elections, gasoline will be $2.50 a gallon. I'm not sure about that, but I would certainly hold onto your vehicle until the market conditions change. Its the same advice for people who want to sell their real estate. I say wait unless you absolutely have to.
call us silly optimists
06-05-2008, 10:42 AM
#49
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It would be nice, but I don't think that we'll ever see $3 gas again, let alone gas in the $2s! And I'm an optimistic kinda guy! When GMs executives shut down four SUV/truck plants (probably the only vehicles that have kept them afloat for the last few years) in order to build small, economical cars; that seems to be a pretty powerful indicator for what they feel is ahead.
Now, about those ribeye steaks... I think that I'll head over to Costco later!
Now, about those ribeye steaks... I think that I'll head over to Costco later!
06-05-2008, 11:14 AM
#50
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Michael: That's my dilemma - if my SUV is worth only half its original sell price, 1.5 years and only 10K miles later, what could it possibly be worth at 4 years old. If it's worth $12K it might be worth hanging on to, but if it's worth $6K at that point the gas savings will have made the decision to get rid of it correct (I can still bank $24K at this point). What I'm having problems getting my head around is how can a $50K new vehicle be worth almost nothing four years later? Is it VW, or the world economy, or is everybody so scared of $10K transmission replacements done by somewhat-inept dealer mechanics, or $15K engine swaps because manufacturers won't supply repair parts, or is it that the average consumer is so scared of skyrocketing gas prices they won't do the math and pay $30K for an as-new $50K vehicle that gets crappy mileage. Jeez, even GM and Ford are shutting down truck/SUV plants - is that historic or what?
All of the above Pete.
I personally would not trade in a truck I paid $50,000 for. I would drive it till the wheels fell off. No way am I going to "give" someone else a nice truck for pennies on my dollar.
06-05-2008, 11:26 AM
#51
Drifting
How about a $80,000 Phaeton for $24,000
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/car/706403842.html
My wife has a VW TDI that gets about 45 MPG and with diesal here at $4.60 it costs her about about 10 cents per mile.
I think it's amazings how some dealers are asking $14,000 for a 5 year old TDI with 120,000 miles when for $22k I can pick up an 08 with 0 miles and full warrant and paid maintenance plan.
As Douglas says, most automobiles are consumables and you are taking a bigger hit with deprecitaion by not driving them.
John
http://raleigh.craigslist.org/car/706403842.html
My wife has a VW TDI that gets about 45 MPG and with diesal here at $4.60 it costs her about about 10 cents per mile.
I think it's amazings how some dealers are asking $14,000 for a 5 year old TDI with 120,000 miles when for $22k I can pick up an 08 with 0 miles and full warrant and paid maintenance plan.
As Douglas says, most automobiles are consumables and you are taking a bigger hit with deprecitaion by not driving them.
John
06-05-2008, 11:48 AM
#52
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Do we have enough space for the junkyards that will be needed to put all of these modern-day electronic marvels away when they're only a few years old because nobody will take a chance on super-expensive failures? Wow...
06-05-2008, 12:06 PM
#53
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If I may think aloud here for a moment:
Let's just take a hypothetical $1.00 "more" per gallon than you were spending last year.
And let's say you get an abysmal 10mpg (easier math for this Lit major ).
And you drive the national average of 12000 miles per year.
That's "maybe" $1200 per year more in fuel than you were paying than before (given my ugly numbers, mind you). So while that is, indeed, a significant number that this mere mortal and working stiff does not find palatable, is that MORE than you would lose in a trade in? Is that MORE than you would pay for a hybrid? Is that MORE than you would pay for an add'l "little car" replete with add'l insurance, tax, registration, and maintenacne costs? Dumping the "big" car only makes sense WHEN it makes sense. Not to mention the true utility that comes IF that large vehicle is performing its job as intended. Crunch the numbers; don't buy into hysteria; and don't be driven by fear, doom, and gloom.
Pontificating alert:
This is a nation where ideas, resourcefulness, and the *freedom* to implement them (hopefully, depending on how the political winds blow) create solutions, real solutions. If only we could divorce ourselves from the hysterical fear, irrational conspiracy mongering, politcally-charged junk science, and political correct "speechifying" which merely placates the aforementioned doom-and-gloom crowd, then perhaps real solutions which address the problems really would be developed AND implemented. But alas, that would require honest words, and then the intestinal fortitude to actually act on what is right ...as opposed to just sailing along with the prevailing winds.
Off my box, now. You are now free to ignore me
Edward
Let's just take a hypothetical $1.00 "more" per gallon than you were spending last year.
And let's say you get an abysmal 10mpg (easier math for this Lit major
).And you drive the national average of 12000 miles per year.
That's "maybe" $1200 per year more in fuel than you were paying than before (given my ugly numbers, mind you). So while that is, indeed, a significant number that this mere mortal and working stiff does not find palatable, is that MORE than you would lose in a trade in? Is that MORE than you would pay for a hybrid? Is that MORE than you would pay for an add'l "little car" replete with add'l insurance, tax, registration, and maintenacne costs? Dumping the "big" car only makes sense WHEN it makes sense. Not to mention the true utility that comes IF that large vehicle is performing its job as intended. Crunch the numbers; don't buy into hysteria; and don't be driven by fear, doom, and gloom.
Pontificating alert:
This is a nation where ideas, resourcefulness, and the *freedom* to implement them (hopefully, depending on how the political winds blow) create solutions, real solutions. If only we could divorce ourselves from the hysterical fear, irrational conspiracy mongering, politcally-charged junk science, and political correct "speechifying" which merely placates the aforementioned doom-and-gloom crowd, then perhaps real solutions which address the problems really would be developed AND implemented. But alas, that would require honest words, and then the intestinal fortitude to actually act on what is right ...as opposed to just sailing along with the prevailing winds.
Off my box, now. You are now free to ignore me
Edward
06-05-2008, 12:26 PM
#55
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Hope I didn't **** off too many people yesterday. My boss just gave his two year old, $50,000 totally pimped out, multiple sets of wheels, full leather, tow package, Tahoe to one of our driver/will call guys for $11,000 "cause that's all Chevy would give me". That is a ride I'd a taken in a heart beat at twice the money. (The boss got the biggest, badest Suburban he could get for haulin' even bigger toys.)
Ed, at the north east corner of the 60 and Euclid is the VPRacing Fuels 100 octane pumps. I may have payed $7.00 for my last top off. The car is bone dry right now so I gotta go to chevron for 3/4 tank and then down there to VP. It's about a block from my office. right by the airport and 50 miles closer to you than Agura Hills.
Ed, at the north east corner of the 60 and Euclid is the VPRacing Fuels 100 octane pumps. I may have payed $7.00 for my last top off. The car is bone dry right now so I gotta go to chevron for 3/4 tank and then down there to VP. It's about a block from my office. right by the airport and 50 miles closer to you than Agura Hills.
06-05-2008, 12:37 PM
#56
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Well the question was asked, so I'll answer...
1) I was talking about people who aren't driving enthusiasts, for those who are using the vehicle as a daily driver / get from a to b kind of thing. But that's ok.
2) I am paying on the 911. I have a little over a year left on it. I've gotten as high as 27mpg with the little car when I baby it.
3) My Taurus SHO I own outright. Value on the car has realistically hit maybe $3-$4k if I'm lucky & sell to a SHO enthusiast who understands it's a 3.2L not a 3.0L, knows what Stage 1 cams are, what aluminum & TPR bushings do for the car, knows that I had one of the last sets of Tokico struts made for the car, 17x8 wheels instead of the 16x6 stockers, what a Pro-M 77mm MAF is, etc. So, no car payment to replace here. I get 20-22mpg with the car on a regular basis, on long trips (which this never really sees often) it can also hit 27mpg. Car's rock solid too, all service
4) I have told my wife right out if I was in a situation where I was making a payment on the Taurus, it'd be gone & I'd have something far more economical, like the Prius. It just doesn't make financial sense at this point for me, as I'm in a dependable, paid-for sedan.
5) Towing - those who do towing on a regular basis, I have NO issues with having a tow vehicle. Let me ask a question in return though - why are you using that F350 Super Duty to commute to work? One of the guys here at work has a 3500 Dually Cummins Dodge Quad Cab. You know, the BIG one. He pulls a 5th wheel trailer with it, sure, but it was his daily driver because he likes big trucks. We helped convince him to look at a smaller DD, and he now has a fleet of Volvos for the family - an old 850 for his teen, an older s70 for him daily, and a slightly newer one for his wife. The right tool for the job, basically. If the job is commuting, why use a truck the size of a living room, is my point.
We had a kid here at work buy a small Buell (blast?) the other night. He's thrilled about the idea of saving money on his fuel. He paid $2500 for it, and will double to triple the mileage of his '00 Audi TT Quattro 1.8T coupe. So, I asked him... when's the break-even on the fuel savings vs. the $2500 + helmet + accessories + insurance on the new vehicle going to pay off on a bike he's only going to be able to ride for 3-4 months of the year, realistically? He says he pays $16 / day in fuel now, vs. $4 / day. So... 283 commuting days for gas savings + bike purchase + 2 years of insurance at $450 / year. In his case, in 2 years, it'll be a point of break-even. Will he be working here in 2 years, commuting 80 miles a day, or what does tomorrow bring for him?
In the case of the wife's van, it is not used for towing, it's not a pleasure vehicle, it's not used to haul more than 3 people regularly, it's not used to haul massive amounts of groceries... it's a DD commuter vehicle. Its resale value is about what we owe on it, maybe a little in our favor but not much. Payment per month is LESS for the more fuel-efficient car, fuel costs are LESS per month too.
Anyway, that's my take on it.
1) I was talking about people who aren't driving enthusiasts, for those who are using the vehicle as a daily driver / get from a to b kind of thing. But that's ok.
2) I am paying on the 911. I have a little over a year left on it. I've gotten as high as 27mpg with the little car when I baby it.
3) My Taurus SHO I own outright. Value on the car has realistically hit maybe $3-$4k if I'm lucky & sell to a SHO enthusiast who understands it's a 3.2L not a 3.0L, knows what Stage 1 cams are, what aluminum & TPR bushings do for the car, knows that I had one of the last sets of Tokico struts made for the car, 17x8 wheels instead of the 16x6 stockers, what a Pro-M 77mm MAF is, etc. So, no car payment to replace here. I get 20-22mpg with the car on a regular basis, on long trips (which this never really sees often) it can also hit 27mpg. Car's rock solid too, all service
4) I have told my wife right out if I was in a situation where I was making a payment on the Taurus, it'd be gone & I'd have something far more economical, like the Prius. It just doesn't make financial sense at this point for me, as I'm in a dependable, paid-for sedan.
5) Towing - those who do towing on a regular basis, I have NO issues with having a tow vehicle. Let me ask a question in return though - why are you using that F350 Super Duty to commute to work? One of the guys here at work has a 3500 Dually Cummins Dodge Quad Cab. You know, the BIG one. He pulls a 5th wheel trailer with it, sure, but it was his daily driver because he likes big trucks. We helped convince him to look at a smaller DD, and he now has a fleet of Volvos for the family - an old 850 for his teen, an older s70 for him daily, and a slightly newer one for his wife. The right tool for the job, basically. If the job is commuting, why use a truck the size of a living room, is my point.
We had a kid here at work buy a small Buell (blast?) the other night. He's thrilled about the idea of saving money on his fuel. He paid $2500 for it, and will double to triple the mileage of his '00 Audi TT Quattro 1.8T coupe. So, I asked him... when's the break-even on the fuel savings vs. the $2500 + helmet + accessories + insurance on the new vehicle going to pay off on a bike he's only going to be able to ride for 3-4 months of the year, realistically? He says he pays $16 / day in fuel now, vs. $4 / day. So... 283 commuting days for gas savings + bike purchase + 2 years of insurance at $450 / year. In his case, in 2 years, it'll be a point of break-even. Will he be working here in 2 years, commuting 80 miles a day, or what does tomorrow bring for him?
In the case of the wife's van, it is not used for towing, it's not a pleasure vehicle, it's not used to haul more than 3 people regularly, it's not used to haul massive amounts of groceries... it's a DD commuter vehicle. Its resale value is about what we owe on it, maybe a little in our favor but not much. Payment per month is LESS for the more fuel-efficient car, fuel costs are LESS per month too.
Anyway, that's my take on it.
06-05-2008, 01:15 PM
#57
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To Fred H Jr.,
Kudos, sir!
He speaketh in truth, working the numbers and basing economic decisions on empirical evidence, then acts in accordance to his findings. If only our politians and voting populace would behave so sensibly.
Edward
Kudos, sir!
He speaketh in truth, working the numbers and basing economic decisions on empirical evidence, then acts in accordance to his findings. If only our politians and voting populace would behave so sensibly.
Edward
06-05-2008, 01:18 PM
#58
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Pete,
Big trucks and Suvs are taking a huge hit right now, depreciation like you mentioned is not unusual. It is normally pretty substantial, driven by big rebates on new cars and cheap finance deals, but is exacerbated lately by higher gas prices.
Oil prices are determined by supply and demand, pure and simple. And demand is driven by growth in economic activity, not just population growth. World producers are pretty much running full tilt and China and India are emerging as huge new users. Combined with the asinine production restrictions on oil production in the US (ie no drilling in ANWAR, or off the coasts) it isn't going to get any better any time soon.
Gasoline prices are affected by the price of the underlying raw material, plus demand, plus state and federal tax rates, plus state and regional formulation regulations,and refining capacity. So if you don't like $4.00 gal gas, don't whine about the oil companies, it's our state and federal governments causing the majority of the problem.
As soon as Al Gore says he'll take all the expired hybrid batteries and put them on his front yard, I'll think they're a good idea. Ethanol from corn is a joke and costs more energy than it creates, and makes my tortillas more expensive.
Here's my energy policy--
Remove the restrictions on drilling in ANWAR and off the California and Florida coasts.
Start building nuclear plants (one of the few things the French get right besides a nice 95 Bordeaux)
Start building Gasoline refineries.
Ease the EPA requirements on diesel technology.
Stick a wind farm off Ted Kennedy's house on Cape Cod.
Cancel the recently enacted ethanol mandates.
Take the Army and the Marines out of Iraq and invade Brazil. Huge newly discovered oil reserves, cheap sugar to make ethanol and better beaches.
And drive the hell out of your 911!
Big trucks and Suvs are taking a huge hit right now, depreciation like you mentioned is not unusual. It is normally pretty substantial, driven by big rebates on new cars and cheap finance deals, but is exacerbated lately by higher gas prices.
Oil prices are determined by supply and demand, pure and simple. And demand is driven by growth in economic activity, not just population growth. World producers are pretty much running full tilt and China and India are emerging as huge new users. Combined with the asinine production restrictions on oil production in the US (ie no drilling in ANWAR, or off the coasts) it isn't going to get any better any time soon.
Gasoline prices are affected by the price of the underlying raw material, plus demand, plus state and federal tax rates, plus state and regional formulation regulations,and refining capacity. So if you don't like $4.00 gal gas, don't whine about the oil companies, it's our state and federal governments causing the majority of the problem.
As soon as Al Gore says he'll take all the expired hybrid batteries and put them on his front yard, I'll think they're a good idea. Ethanol from corn is a joke and costs more energy than it creates, and makes my tortillas more expensive.
Here's my energy policy--
Remove the restrictions on drilling in ANWAR and off the California and Florida coasts.
Start building nuclear plants (one of the few things the French get right besides a nice 95 Bordeaux)
Start building Gasoline refineries.
Ease the EPA requirements on diesel technology.
Stick a wind farm off Ted Kennedy's house on Cape Cod.
Cancel the recently enacted ethanol mandates.
Take the Army and the Marines out of Iraq and invade Brazil. Huge newly discovered oil reserves, cheap sugar to make ethanol and better beaches.
And drive the hell out of your 911!
We need to seek out and elect officials who stand up and say "We're gonna build a friggin refinery here, here, and here and we don't car what you say! And by the way we're gonna drill here, here, and here, and we don't care what you say. The American people would be falling over each other to vote for someone like that. Sadly, I don't see anyone out there who is gonna do it. China is drilling between Key West and Cuba right now and we do nothing. I can look out of my office window and see the beautiful Gulf of Mexico. Today the water is particularly nice. Put the oil rigs far enough off shore so we can't see them and go to it. I don't want to hear about possible oil spillage in case of a hurricane. How many oil spills occurred during Katrina? I did not here about a single one. If a spill did occur I stand corrected, but it must have been of no consequences or the media would have made a big deal out of it. We have technology to contain spills if they happen, which is extremely rare these days.
It really bugs me when people in our own country want us to lower our living standards to the rest of the world. No disrespect to our foreign friends intended, but just because they pay $8.00 or 9.00 per gallon, why should we? Why should I give up my choice of vehicles to satisfy some tree hugger?
BTW, Ford F 250 6.0 Diesel, 7500 LBS, 20 MPG.
06-05-2008, 01:20 PM
#59
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[QUOTE=84_Carrera;5481458]Well the question was asked, so I'll answer...
Let me ask a question in return though - why are you using that F350 Super Duty to commute to work? QUOTE]
Fred, not sure if this was directed at me or not...I was the only one that said E350 super duty and that is close to F350 super duty. My wife's E350 that gets close to zero miles per gallon is our family car for hauling around all 6 kids. When it's driven it is either loaded with $1,600 in food from Costco or we are driving to church or the beach or loading it full of bikes. Not that it gets used used for the daycare, but it would make sense there too. My wife doesn't have a commute bacause her $146,000 per year daycare is in our home. My gas guzzlin' Chevy astro is a tool I use to earn the $30+ per hour that I make selling packaging weather I am at home on Rennlist or out 75 miles away seeing a $100,000 customer. The Nissan is just for running to Home Depot that is two blocks away. It may have been to the gas station 3 times in the last 2 years. Are they a huge waist of gas? Yes. Did we partisipate in the U.S. economy? Yes. Did I survive my childhood on the wrong side of the tracks as a latch key stoner bastard medical basket case welfair recipiant drop out? Yes. I thank God every day for letting me live in such a great time and have all the things I have. We worked our butts off to get where we are. 18 years ago we had my SSI check of $745 per month to what is now a home that grosses $16,000 per month. How we got here? must have been the big *** SUV's we drove along the way.
Sorry I get a little pissy.
Let me ask a question in return though - why are you using that F350 Super Duty to commute to work? QUOTE]
Fred, not sure if this was directed at me or not...I was the only one that said E350 super duty and that is close to F350 super duty. My wife's E350 that gets close to zero miles per gallon is our family car for hauling around all 6 kids. When it's driven it is either loaded with $1,600 in food from Costco or we are driving to church or the beach or loading it full of bikes. Not that it gets used used for the daycare, but it would make sense there too. My wife doesn't have a commute bacause her $146,000 per year daycare is in our home. My gas guzzlin' Chevy astro is a tool I use to earn the $30+ per hour that I make selling packaging weather I am at home on Rennlist or out 75 miles away seeing a $100,000 customer. The Nissan is just for running to Home Depot that is two blocks away. It may have been to the gas station 3 times in the last 2 years. Are they a huge waist of gas? Yes. Did we partisipate in the U.S. economy? Yes. Did I survive my childhood on the wrong side of the tracks as a latch key stoner bastard medical basket case welfair recipiant drop out? Yes. I thank God every day for letting me live in such a great time and have all the things I have. We worked our butts off to get where we are. 18 years ago we had my SSI check of $745 per month to what is now a home that grosses $16,000 per month. How we got here? must have been the big *** SUV's we drove along the way.
Sorry I get a little pissy.
06-05-2008, 01:48 PM
#60
Addict
OK, I'm better now.
I did see something funny on monday outside a US post office in LaVerne. Three Prius in a row in the post office employee parking lot. Out in the street parked along the curb was a lone guards red SC targa. It made me think of the tree hugging sierra club walking route mail men on one hand and the business owning producer on the other.
Now, I'm alot better...
.
I did see something funny on monday outside a US post office in LaVerne. Three Prius in a row in the post office employee parking lot. Out in the street parked along the curb was a lone guards red SC targa. It made me think of the tree hugging sierra club walking route mail men on one hand and the business owning producer on the other.
Now, I'm alot better...
.