Pesto360

You can see the beginning of how my nightmare unfolded and pictures if you go to the 997 GT3 threads and look up Euro Delivery..
I thought i was the proud owner of 9113601316. Took it to several historic rally events...I traveled all over europe with it...I was smitten...except the car just wasnt right in a few ways I returned it several times to Michael Rauh owner of Rauh motorsports in Schwansfort Germany..who by the way was also the owner of 1316 for the previous 11 years. I spent probably another $50k US in trying to get the car correct between transmission and engine rebuilds and odd bits and pieces....the car still wasnt correct...last year my local porsche dealer told me about the new RS I hurried down to the dealer purchased one and said I wanted my new RS to be special and had them create a car for me that had all exclusive options and even would mimmick the color of my 73 RS (even though it isnt the original color) They made me a car that was a one-off, I later learned that the Porsche factory itself does restorations....thats brilliant...So I decided to make a journey to Germany do a Euro-Delivery I would go to Italy pick up my 73 RS take one final tour of northern Italy with it as is...head up to Stuttgart...drop off my old one pick up my new one....it would be poetic...and I did just that...even took my new RS to prague for a weekend then I had to of course make my journey to the nurburgring and spent a very wet day there learning that very difficult track...then dropped it off in frankfurt to be delivered home...while its exhausted owner flew to Ibiza for a few days for some hard labor (of love that is) ... I was so excited when I got home...Ive been telling everyone of my epic journey...how amazing this trip was..and not able to wait for the first pictures of the porsche factory disassembling my 73 to bring her back to original condition as she once left that very factory 34 years ago. I was waiting now for weeks for that first call from porsche restoration shop...yes I see the number...its Porsche and im familiar with the number and the voice...I was waiting for him to tell me the car was disassembled and he had pictures for me to see...that however wasnt the news, the car wasnt disassembled, the car was a 73 911T not an RS...how could this be?? the numbers 9113601316 are stamped so proudly under the bonnet....the owner before me owned a porsche repair facility and his knowledge of these cars is way beyond any simpleton in the usa...he is after all an authentic german owning the authentic german carrera RS and being a true to life authentic german porsche service shop owner...with bare chassis scattered all over his warehouse and several little pockets of other chassis stashed away all over schwanfort in obscure garages i would think he would be well aware as to whether or not that 73 RS sitting in his garage was in fact ... real!! He is able to tell me whether or not the bumpers on the car are correct even several bolts and hoses...His knowledge eclipsed that of even the most intense porsche fans... He even showed me an 89 ruf with actual ruf numbers which was demolished and another 89 turbo body he was replacing those numbers with because in germany he so proudly told me..that is ok to do......He was able to tell me my rear control arms were from a 74 which had improved geometry and several more anchoring bolts...He told me every single piece that I would need to make my RS perfect...even said he may be able to find the original engine block and he was hot on the lead to find it..as well as an original set of RS wheels with original tires for when i want to show the car after it is restored to perfection.On his website you can see how he so proudly explains in detail how he so skillfully disassembled my motor and added more power to it...and supplied pictures...and you can even see a picture of me there..next to my RS ( did I say RS? I meant T) About $50,000 later and several attempts at perfection my poor little RS (T) just wasnt perfect so I took it to a friend in italy who said the gear box needed to be rebuilt this all happened while I was purchasing my new RS and decided to just redo the entire car at porsche, get the letter of authenticity, the nice little photo book of its restoration while all along adding miles of provenance to this car..But it looks like that happy ending is not in sight...

I called Michael Rauh, spoke to him on the phone and he said for the past 11 years prior to my purchase he has owned the car and it has never ever been in an accident never a wreck and he never even did any paint work on it (although i recall him telling me he recently put a fresh coat of paint on it when i bought it) and he reitterated this to The gentleman at porsche restoration the previous day. He also supplied them with the owner previous to him who owned the car for 10 years. Porsche has been very helpful throughout all this we are now tracking down the 911t and seeing where and what that car is and who the previous owners were... I told Michael that I want the money back for my RS or..I want the original chassis to magically appear at porsche factory so we can finally have this happy ending i discussed earlier...unfortunately i think my happy ending is best provided at the local massage parlor....

any input would greatly help

theiceman

Wow great ( but sad ) story .. I had to piece a couple of things together though ..

I take it the place you bought your new 997 from was owned by the guy who sold you the 73 T ( RS ) ? is this the same guy who is the expert and has all the parts of cars scatered everywhere ?

What defining proof did the factory provide that it was in fact not an RS but a T ?

Pesto360

Im in South Florida...I bought the 73 RS (t) in germany kept it in italy...My 997gt3RS I bought from the collection in Miami...and did a european delivery...the proof the factory gave me was they found the original vin number on the chassis of my RS(t) and said the car had been rebodied by someone fraudulently who then passed it on as an original RS and replaced all the pieces or sections of the car where the RS numbers were stamped..the car was a very good fake...but didnt fool its mother...Upon very close inspection the folks at porsche classic uncovered the fraud....

theiceman

Okay now I get it .. you told Michael you wanted the money back you payed for your RS ( T ) ... not the 997 RS you had just bought .... i got lost in all RS's

I think you could be in for a tough fight in foreign courts if it gets to that. be ery carefull with Michael , if he hangs up the phone on you , you are pretty well doomed ...
PS I am very familiar with the Collection . A top notch facility to say the least , but I am not sure what they can do to help if anything . Personally I feel more comfortable wandering around Gables Sports Cars across the street as i may actually be able to aford one of those ...

Good luck ... OS you can always drown your sorrows at "Houstons" .... it is afterall walking distance ...

Graufuchs

Unbelievable....its a cardinal sin to misinform someone about a car....I hope it all works out and you get the original chassis.

Pesto360

Germany is a civilized country with a fair court system. I will be hiring an attorney by next week if this isnt resolved. Porsche has also been very helpful so we will see what happens. Im lucky enough to have some good friends in germany who will help me along the way here...if anyone has any input please let me know...

JFairman

I thought the 73 RS chassis was made from thinner guage sheet metal than regualr 911's for lighter weight.
Measuring it would tell the truth.

Good luck with the resoloution.

r911

I would find out from the factory (in writing) what are the details they found that tell them it is a T, not an RS. yes, lighter gauge sheet metal might be one item - depends I think on the date of RS manf. & whether Touring or what. There are experts who know this stuff inside & out. Finding out the details does not mean to post them on the Internet -- IF that would allow other crooks to fake RS's.

You say the car was "not right" but don't say what it was that felt wrong about it...

Next issue: Did the Seller (Michael) know it was fake or was he fooled too? That might make a difference in the legal analysis.

And, he apparently is a commercial seller, not just a guy with a couple of cars? That would make a difference in most US states (Uniform Commercial Code).

Then there is the question of what law applies. How many differ states and countries are involved? Where is the Seller located - Germany? Did you travel there to FORM the sales contract? Or only to pick up the car? Did he advertise the car where you were located? The latter can sometimes create jurisdiction in your home locality (state). I it usually cheaper for you to litigate there (if it comes to that). But laws in Germany could actually be more favorable to you than laws in any US state... e.g it is possible that Germany imposes a duty of inspection on a commercial car seller. If it does (I got NO idea) then he does not have the defense that he didn't know it was fake. (altho, he might still have a defense of I carefully inspected it and it is such a good fake, I did not catch it).

A good international law firm can sort all this out for you. It will not be cheap.

repeat: NOT cheap

Good Luck.
Good Luck.

Daniel Dudley

This happened to me a few years ago with a Porsche authenticated by a well known Porsche Dealership in the US. Given it's provenance, I spent a bit of money putting it right, only to find, as you did, that it was not the car I paid for. As the car was only authenticated by the dealership, and not purchased from them, I had no real recourse. I felt the ownership experience was ruined for me, so I sold it at a loss to a person who turned around and sold it for a profit. I know that sick feeling you are experiencing. I trust this won't hurt you too much financially.

Funny thing is, I rather miss it now. All that money and good work is being enjoyed by another. You certainly do deserve a fair resolution. A few phone calls should get you some answers.

I can only hope that this serves as a warning to others. I wonder how many others are even now blissfully ignorant. Keep us posted, and Good Luck.

UserA

As terrible as this story is, I gotta tell you I would love to be able to have those types of problems. I think the biggest issue will be if Michael knew it was a T and not an RS. Did he know you were going to take the car to the factory? Did he have any reservations about it? Good luck.

pjc

Guess the guys at Stuttgart are unlikely to be wrong - they know what to look for and are dealing with these cars all the time.

Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law and even if the dealer sold the car 'in good faith' this is no excuse. If the car was advertised as an RS then he has to accept responsibilty if it turns out to be incorrect. Unlike a private sale where 'buyer beware' - it is the MAIN reason for buying from accredited dealers. He should take the car back and give you a full refund - if not I'm sure the courts will insist.

Good luck. PJC

UberXY

I am sure there are far more RS's in collections now than were ever originally made.

Steve
84 Carrera
64 356C

UserA

Very good point, again good luck with everything.

lateapex911

I have to say, that this is all very fishy. Presto seems to be very well heeled, yet buys a car that has issues...issues that require him to pour tens of thousands in? And THEN he decides it needs to go back to the factory? Ever heard of due diligence? Of pre purchase inspections? Of second and third opinions? (I wish I had the amount of cash needed to be so casual with such an investment)

Regardless, a car such as this is all about provenance, and to take one mans word....the seller (who is a conflict of interest party!) is just ridiculous. And to then discover issues post purchase? My my.........Caveat emptor.

Then he goes on to detail his globehopping adventures and more excessive expenses. Which is all fine and good, but begs the question....more money than sense?

Pesto360

I have known mr rauh for a few years post purchase he even assisted us in a few rallies and was our chase team in the Monte Carlo Rally and we have spent alot of time socially since then and I gave him two very loyal customers...Im still in a bit of shock....this car was not a car he was buying and selling although his shop does do that and i referred two of my friends to him to purchase and maniatin their cars...it was his personal car for 11 years...He speaks daily to people in the factory and knows people at ruf on a first name basis...The car itself is on his business cards its registered with the UK owners list came with tons and tons of provenance even the letter of authenticity from porsche, it had the original 360 numbers stamped in the right place and even the one and only dr konradsheim made a journery to schwanfeld to purchase this very car for himself because it was originally india red, he wanted one in that color in his quest to have owned every color rs made..I found out after the numbers being wrong that in fact dr konradsheim did make the journey saw the car made an offer but never thoroughly examined it...The $50,000 spent was on rebuilding a real RS motor which was in this car when i purchased it and was smoking i bought the car with the knowledge that I had to rebuild the motor (t just wasnt the RS motor that this car was born with) and rebuilding all the linkages and the transmission...Go to any reputable shop and you will see thats about what this all costs...Porsche Classic uncovered this fraud by a series of numbers under the dash i believe which did not correspond with the 360 numbers...they were however able to identify the original 73 orange 911t that the car was rebodied on...NO there is no other 1316 anywhere that we have been able to find and the 73t is being investgated now to see if in fact its been registered on the road anywhere in the 11 years prior to my purchase...if so...well i guess you can make your own assumptions...i agree with one of the comments stating that it had to have been one of the 2 previous owners because the RS wasnt that valuable back then to make it worthwhile to go through the process of rebodying the car...Im not going to cast any stones but my investigation will be over this week and I am going to take the legal route unless my original tub magically appears in stuttgart or the car is purchased back from me...to me it makes no sense how someone with his extreme knowledge would not notice the numbers under the dashboard.....This is a person with expert knowledge on these cars...Im just a guy who likes to go crazy on the track and drive them...not much into repairing them...I bought the car to keep in europe and enjoy while Im there....but all the problems I had, made enjoying it very difficult which is what led me to the porsche factory...I hope i answered all the questions