John G.

Ok, time for me to start showing just how wet-behind-the-ears I am. I have something of a two-part question concerning a car I'm considering buying, and if all goes well with that, if what I plan to do with it is feasable. I've asked about this car before, but I've finally had the chance to drive it around and know a little more about it.

For all this, keep in mind I'm 22, and currently drive around a '77 911S Targa.

Ahem:

I'm looking at this supercharged European model '86 Carrera coupe with about 90k miles on it. The thing is basically my dream 911. Gold color, absolutely fantastic engine and drive train, wide fender flares, chin spoiler and a big 'ol whale tail on the back.

The seller is asking 18,500 for it, which I see to be a little high. The paint is very rough, because it's been keyed on both doors and the hood looks like it's been shot with a rock-chip shooting shotgun. The interior is also so-so, with the seats showing definite wear (holes in the leather), a worn dash (but not cracked, luckily), roller **** missing from the lock and a few other not-perfect blemishes here and there. Also there's some horrible kind of aftermarket sound system that doesn't quite seem to work well. Oh, and the air conditioner is sitting in a box in the mechanic's office.

On the other hand, the engine is an absolute marvel. It's supercharged but not to the extreme: the purpose of the blower is more to bring the car in line with sea-level performance (I live at 7,000 feet), with a little extra (so says the mechanic). The supercharger has been on there for about three years and/or 6,000 miles. The engine was running a little lean at one point because of a loose seal or bearing or some problem like that, but has been rectified and about a thousand miles has been put on since.

Furthermore, no expense was spared with the modification: SSI heat exchangers, a full custom cat back exhaust system, two oil coolers (transmission and front-mounted), short throw gearbox, and a few other things that I'm forgetting. It's just had the supercharger rebuilt and 90k maintinence performed, which includes all new belts and fluids and anything else.

A third thing to consider: the car is a federalized European car. Some air force guy brought it over form Germany in the late '80s. It's had the necessary work done to it in Texas (not full California-grade, but things like ride height adjustment and a few exhaust system tweeks). Most importantly, its been given a full rundown several times by quality mechanics and they don't see anything wrong with the federalization work.

Any suggestions about a purchase? Am I going to be looking at a top-end engine rebuild in about 10k miles? I know the Carreras are generally pretty good cars, but if I'm going to sink 18,000 initially and another 10k a few hundred miles down the road I'd like to know. I'll also be having my mechanic perform a full PPI sometime this week...

Or should I just look for a nice clean-running late model 911 or 964 for around the same price? Buying the car won't put me into debt or anything, but it is a fairly sizable "investment" at my age.

On to question two:

IF this car should turn out to be good, what's the feasibility or practicality of taking this thing on a cross-country trip? I'm planning a quick run into California to test it out on long-distance, and then might head up to New England. For the record, I'm based in New Mexico.

Anyone have any experience traveling with and in a Porsche for a fairly extended period of time? It's kind of a fantasy but I'd like to take this (or another P-car) along the back roads of the country and just enjoy driving as much as possible.

What about vandalism and other nefarious acts? Am I going to have to shell out 200-300 a night to stay at places where people can't find me, or would it be fairly safe at a Days/Holiday/Motel6/whatever inn? Or even a campsite here and there?

Please, share your experiences. I'd like to know if I should just bag this whole plan and get in my Camry.

-JG

1977 911S Targa

theiceman

Firstly with a super charged Porsche you are pretty well in a realm on your own, I dodn't know of anybody who gas one, maybe a few guys here , but all bets are off for mechanical issues or reliability as someone has " messed with the formula", who know what challenges lay ahead. I am personally one of the few as instantly seeing a car to be worth less if it has been moded beyond some suspension upgrades, but to each his own.

I would say do lots of research before doing anything and educate yourself, you are right I think that price is fairly high if it is that rough .

I park my car anywhere and don't really worry about it ..

ked

JC, good questions before making a big decision. I'll try to be be concise...

"Any suggestions about a purchase?"
Don't do it.
"Am I going to be looking at a top-end engine rebuild in about 10k miles?"
Who knows the future? But the liklihood of pouring a shocking amount of $ in is great.
{6K on motor, mostly running too lean (at altitude!), THEN a sc rebuild? Not confidence inspiring... + it sounds like the car faces a $10k bill for "incidentals" as it sits.}
"Or should I just look for a nice clean-running late model 911 or 964 for around the same price?"
Yes.
"Buying the car won't put me into debt or anything..."
Maybe not, but owning it might.
"...what's the feasibility or practicality of taking this thing on a cross-country trip?"
I'd would NEVER pay $18k for a driver that wasn't 99+% CERTAIN of making such a trip.
"Anyone have any experience traveling with and in a Porsche for a fairly extended period of time?"
Yes - it is wonderful, what Porsche (& America) are all about (or used to be). Make your fantasy a reality - supercharger not required for enjoyment.
"... or would it be fairly safe at a Days/Holiday/Motel6/whatever inn? Or even a campsite here and there?"
Make sure you are insured for the trip, apply common sense ("situational awareness"), don't be overwrought w/ "Porsche Paranoia"... relax, wander & wonder.
"I'd like to know if I should just bag this whole plan and get in my Camry."
Don't bag the plan, bag the mysterious supercharged Euro spec and get a nice plain SC, 3.2 or even a Turbo (handles altitude pretty well) if you can pull together the $s - but always keep a cash reserve.
best of luck!

84_Carrera

I'm a relative Noob myself, so take this with a grain of salt.

Knowing a blower's run lean at some point, verify stock internals or a purpose-built engine. I would be very concerned with a lean-run Carrera, especially a Euro. If it's a Euro w/ higher compression, adding a blower to it is PROBABLY going to mean some serious detonation, unless the DME has been modified / chipped to accomodate, AND serious fuel remapping has occurred. For example, on one of my customer's 9.8:1 CR 3.2L V6 SHO (water cooled & knock sensor'd), I've run a max of 10psi non-cooled boost with 36 lb-hr injectors (up from 24lb-hr stock), and a higher duty cycle (pushing the injectors beyond 80%, for example). This yielded 322 hp at the wheels, from a stock ~ 190-200 at the wheels. Air / Fuel was tuned appropriately on the dyno.

For my own high-boost SHO engine I lowered the compression to 9.0:1, and I was running 48 lb-hr injectors and a 240 lph fuel pump (stock 112 lph). If the Euro spec is stock compression (10.8:1 ????? chime in here guys), and you're running more than say... 5psi, I'll go out on a limb & say you're in the danger zone at sea level. Now you're also at altitude, so that's going to change the formula a lot. I know there are some guys in the CO area running boosted SHOs & they get quite a bit different numbers than me here in New England. Is it a twin-plug conversion?

Anyway, I'd get some specific numbers (original block / compression, what's been done to the fuel, engine management, intercooler, etc.) & then I'd contact someone who does blowers for 3.2L carreras, maybe overseas talk to .... Ninemeister? Someone in the UK does a blower for 3.2's IIRC. Powerhaus? Can't remember for sure.

Good luck, and yeah, I'd be planning a lot of engine work depending on what you find out. purchase price-wise, I'd balance what you've found out on the engine against the chassis stuff.

cross-country trip, I drove my 84 Carrera home from Michigan with no issues other than a rather friendly Ohio trooper, and some lake-effect snow that I stayed ahead of until Syracuse.

Paul K

I say save up for a 930 instead.

Hope it works out either way!

Paul.

DARISC

Be very aware that a 930 provides a VASTLY different driving experience than a 911 (even a supercharged 911). The 930 is a magnificent beast that must be driven in an entirely different manner than a 911.

It's a powerful "slingshot" which releases its power very abruptly, as if an on-off switch is thrown kicking in the turbo's power pretty much all at once. This sudden burst of brute power can catch an inexperienced 930 driver off guard because when the switch will be thrown is not intuitive to a new driver. If it's thrown unexpectedly in the middle of a curve the results can (and have been) catastrophic/deadly. Bottom line is that a 930 is very challenging to drive (but goes like hell in the hands of a competent pilot!).

On the street, off boost, you may find a 930 less enjoyable to drive than a 911 which is more responsive and quicker than an off boost 930.

Also, if you find rocket launches fun, a 930 will certainly thrill you, but at the cost of frequent transaxle rebuilds because 930s are not meant to be driven in that manner any more than a 911.

If drag strip launches are your thing, a Corvette or muscle car is a more proper choice of tool.

Good luck!

butzip

sounds sketchy. If the interior is shot and you have questions about reliability (read: no peace of mind / confidence) in the car, then it just is not worth it. Find a nice M491 Factory wide body with a solid 3.2 and you'll be thrilled. You get looks, reliability and all the susp/brake goodies of a turbo. Insert my $0.02 here..........

butzip

BTW - I had a choice between a 1979 RoW 911 turbo (300hp) and a 1988 911 cab and I chose the cab for various reasons. Among them:

G-50 5spd vs baulky 4 spd
hyd clutch vs cable
Motronic vs K-jetronic
everyday drivability vs lagy thrust
my 944 turbo S cost half as much, had virtually the same performance AND everyday drivability. So on principle I felt like I was paying more and getting less. 6 yrs down the road and I still love my cab and know I made the right decision.

John G.

Thanks for all the input everyone. At the very least my worries about a cross-country trip have been relaxed. I'll have to start looking into routes and setting up an online blog...

Anyway, about the car. I'm not 100% sold just yet, because I'm waiting on a full PPI with leakdown and a good hard look at the stack of papers the guy has on the car. There is a good deal of work done to it, not just the supercharger, and the seller just recently traded up from it to a 997 Turbo so I know this wasn't a boy racer's project car. I plan to drive it one more time with the seller AND the mechanic who works on it to really uncover any problem areas. Having driven it once though, I was very impressed. The engine felt very similar to a 996 in torque and the road feel was the old-type 911 edge that I really enjoy.

Like I said, I'm pretty confident about the engine being in good shape because the boost is only running at 4 psi, which is just enough to balance out the altitude difference plus a little extra. Should the PPI turn up something that shouldn't be, the supercharger is really a bolt-on unit that fits where the air conditioner was, and my mechanic said it's easy to just take it out. It would make a bit of sense to me to keep the supercharger on while at altitude, and then take it off when I'm setting out on my long trip. As an extra plus there, I'd have air conditioning...

Ked: I'm just anticipating the absolute worst that could happen because everything is gravy until that point. In describing the car I might have cast it in a fairly bad light: it isn't necessarily "mysterious" beyond the fact I haven't dug through the box of paperwork it comes with. It's a well documented car with a pretty interesting history. The problems arise when know most Carreras require a rebuild of some sort around 100k miles, and the fact it's federalized which I know VERY little about. But I'm used to maintinence and it wouldn't be my daily driver. I do appreciate the warnings, however: I'm really going to try to be as objective as possible with the car and go over all potential problem areas with a fine-toothed comb. Logically, my best course of action would be to look at the shiny '77 sitting in the garage and say that I've already got one and be happy there, or look for a perfect 944/944 Turbo for 10k.

As for a Turbo, well, I've heard a few too many horror stories about the snap oversteer. There have been MANY times while driving windy roads in my Targa that I've said "If I had a Turbo I'd be dead" because I felt the rear end sliding around a little and I was able to ease it back into control. In my eyes, the older Turbos are more for highway/autobahn driving than the kind of mountain and country roads that I prefer.

And for the trip advice, I appreciate everyone's. I'll have to start a thread related to that sometime in the future.

But keep the advice coming! Good to hear it all.

-JG

Lancaster911

You described a car in not very good overall shape, and it will need $10k more in repairs. Yet you are considering it, 911's can cloud a person's logic.

......Good Luck.......we all have been there

DARISC

I personally believe you'd be MUCH better off if you kept looking.

H2NO

Don't pay 18,500 for that car. As much as I'd like to support Carrera prices, that car is not an 18,500 car. If it were, my very good condition, 60k mile 1989 Cab would be worth mid-thirties. It's not.