EuroSport

Ok everyone I have the opportunity to get a REALLY cheap water cooled 3.4L 911 Carrera engine. It will need a little bit of work (as hard as it may be to believe, I do me little work) and will be complete including exhaust and every thing attached to the engine. The questions are as follows:

1) Will this engine fit in the '87?

2) Will this engine mount to the standard '87 transmission?

3) Is there a spot to mount the front mounted radiator? (I assume there is one)

4) Will the standard computer in my '87 Carrera run this engine? If not will I need all of the computer components out of a new 911?

5) If I do get the engine in the car, and running, is there a lot to worry about adding an extra 100 hp to the car?

6) What have I forgotten to ask? I know there is something I have over looked!

Basically I just bought my 911 and I was considering having a buddy of mine in OKC build a performance engine from a 3.2l core. When this engine came available at a really good price. I don't want to over modify my 911, but would consider adding an extra cooler and make some basic (not permanent) mods to the car. I want to keep the good stock engine so that the car can be put back to its stock condition eventually.

Please help! I might buy this engine any way, only because its a good deal!

JackOlsen

I'm no expert, by any stretch of the imagination. But I did swap a larger engine into my car, and I briefly asked about the possibility of a 996 engine. Put simply, I was told that it is a bad idea.

1) It will fit in the 1987, but you're going to have a lot of expensive mods on your plate, not least for water cooling. The 87 doesn't have any meaningful way to vent air to a radiator. And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

2) I believe it will mate to a 915.

3) Radiator space? Not without a fair amount of cutting, welding and ducting.

4) You will need the 996 computer. Yours will not work. You will need a lot of pieces from the donor engine, including the brain, wire harness, different oil lines, exhaust mods, and even some cutting into the housing of the 915.

5) The extra 100 hp won't hurt anything. But you're also going to need a 996 oil cooler in addition to the radiator. It won't fit in your front fender without more mods.

An air-cooled 3.6 is the largest practical swap with your car, outside of a Chevy V8. You can learn more about it at:

http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/index.html

Incidentally, the 996 engines -- even brand new -- are very inexpensive. They're also pretty much useless if you don't have a 996. You will spend thousands getting it to fit in your car.

Ed Bighi

If I were you I would rather use a 3.6 or a 3.3 turbo. Either of those are better in my book. Here is why. The basic water cooled carrera engine is in many ways of lower quality than the older air cooled engines. Because of that, the gt3 and 996 turbos are based on the old air cooled 3.6 crankcase. And that is without mentioning the lack of a dry sump in the 3.4 liter water pumper. 996 engines are cheap because they are cheaply made. The 3.6 is an easier swap that makes a hell of a lot more sense. Besides it has the advantage of air cooling. If one does not see the merits of air cooling, frankly they should not be on this board. The 3.3 is an even easier swap (i have seen it done in less than a day) with the potential for serious hp with little modification. I would recommend those routes instead of the 996 swap.

Mark W

Ed,

Lower Quality???? Where did you come up with that load of BS.

Yes, it uses some less exotic materials but it can because it's heat management is better. Does this make it lower quality? NO. Cheaper maybe, but not lower quality.

Lack of dry sump, wrong! Because the motor isn't using the oil as a coolant it requires less. The tank is now contained within the engine block but the basic oiling is still via a dry sump method.

"The turbo uses the old 3.6L air cooled case", wrong again, it uses the GT1 water cooled motor as a base. Heck, the 3.3L turbo motor was completely different than the 3.0L of the same era. That didn't make the NA Porsche motors lower quality.

Maybe YOU don't understand the advantages of air cooling, it certainly isn't for making power. Porsche realized this back in the 80's when they began development of the GT1. Air cooling is simpler and weighs less but if you want to create reliable, big HP you need to manage the heat better, water was/is the solution.

Don't get me wrong, I love my air cooled turbo but that doesn't blind me to the fact that the new 911's are in many ways better and more advanced than mine.

Sorry for the rant but throwing out the terms "quality" and "cheaply built" to differenciate the old and the new is pretty lame and not very informed.

To the original question, I agree that a 3.6 air cooled is an easier and more common sense transplant. The chassis needs to be designed around the engine and the older chassis aren't designed for all the plumbing and mounting differences so the transformation would be a nightmare.

EuroSport

Thanks to everyone that replied! I apreciate the input, its what makes this site awesome! I am still going to purchase the engine (if given the chance) and rebuild it. I am sure I will not have a problem selling it after its back together! Again the reason for asking this question was the fact that the engine is nearly free. I will eventually do the 3.6l upgrade to my car. Thanks again!

pig4bill

You could stick it in the Bugeye. It's already got a radiator.

EuroSport

The Bugeye! I don't know. I am building a 145hp supercharged engine for it! I think that will be power enough! After all the car only weighs 1400lbs!

Ed Bighi

Mark, I did not want to upset you, but here are a couple of facts. Yes, the 996 has what the factory terms an internal dry sump system. Here is a thought. The dry sump in the gt3 is more conventionally located. It is external. It is on the backside of the engine. Also, I have looked at the gt3 engine, the turbo engine and the standard 3.4 outside of their cars. The gt3 and turbo were very different than the 3.4. And I am not talking different like the 3.0 and 3.3 turbo you mentioned. Everything was different, crankcase and all. The differences between the old sc/carrera and turbo are not that many. For starters, they used basically the same crankcase. The pistons on the 930 are 97mm and the stroke was 74.4. On the sc these numbers were 95 and 70.4. The compression on the 930 was 7 to 1. These were the fundamental differences other than the anciliaries associated with turbocharging. The basic architecture of both engines were the same with a lot of common parts like main bearings, valve springs and such. But getting back to the gt3, 996t and 996, the 996's 3.4 liter engine has the boxster engine as its closest relative. It has almost nothing in common with the 996t engine or the gt3 other than its cooling method. You mentioned the gt3 engine is gt1 based. Yes, I have read that too, but it doesan't tell the whole story. For starters, where do you think the gt1 engine came from. It did not come from the 996. Its basic architecture is much closer to the 993 or the old 962 or better yet, the 959. The 962/959 engines had a design very close to their standard street air cooled counterparts, but with different air/water cooled pistons and heads. Some had air cooled pistons and water cooled heads and others water/water. Both had 4 cams if I am not mistaken. The only difference were on the IMSA 962's which were running mofied 935 plants due to regulations. Those can be identified easily by the big air intake on the engine cover since they were air cooled. Even by just looking at the gt1 engine one can see that it is very close to the 962 motor. And that motor was based on the street motors. Of course the materials and probably all parts are different, but the basic architecture is the same with the main difference being the 4 valve water cooled heads. And the differences between the heads of the 962 and gt1 were that the 962 had six individual heads that were welded to the cylinders which were enclosed in water jackets in some cases. The gt1 had 2 indivdual 3 cylinder heads instead, like the 959. All of these were a lot like the 911/964/993 engines. As a matter of fact, all of Porsches flat six racing engines up to and including the gt1 were rooted in the old air cooled 911 engine. Therefore, the gt3/996turbo have engines that are rooted in the old engines mentioned above and are completely different then the boxster based 996 3.4 engine. And those gt3/996t engines have a lot in common with their old 993 cousin from their pistons to the center. They are not completely new designs like the 3.4 and boxster engines are. The 3.4 and boxster engines are of a completely new design and much cheaper to produce. Also, if I am not mistaken, there are kits sold to improve the oiling in standard 996 powerplant in high G situations. I know someone who wishes he had put in such a device before he toasted his 996 engine from an oiling problem. Those aren't required in gt3/996turbo engines.

Randall G.

Per the Tech Forum of the most recent issue of Excellence Magazine, the 996 uses a "Semi-Dry Sump" design:

"An oiling system that contains the sump in a specially formed piece of the engine case, but it's still located well below any of the engine's reciprocating components."

"The semi-dry sump setup allows for a more streamlined assembly process as the semi-dry sump oil system is somewhat simpler than the 911 system. It eliminates the extra plumbing for an external oil tank while offering some of the dry-sump system's advantages. However, it is still susceptible to high-G loading and sloshing and requires some modifications to prevent oil from being sloshed into reciprocating parts. Porsche Motorsports North America has just such an upgrade available to 996 owners who plan to use their Porsches on the track."

Mark W

Ed,

You didn't upset me, I was having a bad day. Sorry for the tone of the reply.

You are absolutely correct, the GT1 was more of a culmination (sp?) of many years of effort starting with the first boxer 6 and the results are spectacular. For the rigor of the turbo and gt2 it makes sense, rather than beef up the new motor they can actually save money by reusing the basically proven racing package, detuned for longevity.

If you look at the specs of the new motor you can't help but see that they are making more power with less displacement than they ever did before in their production engines. I think that's pretty good engineering and if they can also do it for less cost then ultimately we are the winners because we will be able to enjoy this technology with less drain on the walet.

I don't think that makes it a lower quality motor than the old 3.6 964 motor, just different.

BTW, you are right, Porsche does sell a modification to correct an oiling problem in race cars but Porsche has been doing this for years (coming up with fixes after the new designs hit the track). This fix isn't intended for casual track excursions like DE's, it's intended for full blown race motors like in a cup or GT car.

The motors they build for both the GT3 cup and the GT3 RS now include this fix. It was a retrofit for the earlier cup and GT cars. BTW, have you seen the HP numbers they get? 370 on the cup motor and 420 on the RS motor! Pretty strong for cheap motors

richard glickel

Mark & Ed,

You guys are obviously both extremely knowledgable about Porsche engineering advances. But, weren't the first water-cooled heads utilized in the 935, a/k/a "Moby Dick", circa 1975, about 10 years before the 962?

Richard
'87 Carrera

P.S. eurosport: if you wish to keep your 3.2 stock, then go with the 3.6 conversion for your '87. while you're at it, better invest in a set of turbo brakes to stop the monster you'll have created!

good luck.

EuroSport

Thanks richglickel, I think that is what I will end up doing! I have started looking for a place to get a good 3.6L any one know a good shop? - on a side note. I never thought that this simple batch of questions would start such a long list of replies! I don't think it much matters air cooled verses water cooled. Heck, air cools the water that cools the engine in my Bugeye!! Thanks again for everyone's input!

Jeff Curtis

Tom, or "Eurosport"...definitely go w/the 3.6 idea...you'll have quite a performance upgrade that's bulletproof due to the fact that it's pulling 400 less pounds in your Carrera chassis.

A 3.6 can be had, even on the Rennlist 911 used parts forum...for around 6k w/computer, saw a few go through there over the last month as a matter of fact. It will mount to your G-50 trans. w/no problem, being that that is what the 3.6 cars use as well. Somebody mentioned in an earlier thread "it should mate to a 915", your '87 should have a G-50, right?

There are several websites/articles written to do the swap...you'll be amazed w/the difference I'm sure. Then if you are concerned w/selling the car w/original drivetrain, by all means, keep your 3.2 around and recondition it.

Good luck, and the most important thing to remember w/these seemingly expensive and temperamental cars...have FUN w/them!!

CamB

Apart from watercooling being more efficient, I think the 4 valves per cylinder has a lot to do with the performance of the 996 engine.

And I hope you can sell the 996 engine for enough when it is done to fund a 3.6 purchase

richard glickel

ES,

One last thought. Check out the article on supercharging in last issue of Excellence. Theoretically, could have the 3.2 redone to spec and bolt on a supercharger, which could be removed to restore the car to "stock".

Some feel that since the factory has eschewed supercharging for turbocharging, that supercharging must be bad for Porsche engines. But, most "experts" claim that supercharging will not harm an engine, and certainly not the strong engines that Porsche builds. There's a company in Knoxville that sells superchargers for Porsches . . . the H.P. #'s are incredible.

Hey, whatever you wind up doing, make sure to keep us posted.

Again, good luck to you!

Richard
'87 Carrera