Looking for a Race car. can't do much with the 924. 911's good?
06-28-2003, 03:24 AM
#1
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Looking for a Race car. can't do much with the 924. 911's good?
I'm lookin for a race car. TRACK ONLY! and with the 2.5L 4 cylinder, ya can't really do much without dropping 10 grand into it to get more than 200 hp. so, it's relativly slow. I've decided to look into 911's. are they worth it? I know the ***-end of the car is heavy, so it's not as balanced as the 944 series cars. can it still be thrown around a corner really fast without being sent into a spin? Thanks for the insight.
BTW, if ya havn't had a chance to drive a 944 series on the track, FIND A WAY! they are so well balanced, it's great. <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
BTW, if ya havn't had a chance to drive a 944 series on the track, FIND A WAY! they are so well balanced, it's great. <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />
06-28-2003, 03:40 AM
#2
The Hoffinator
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the spin and handling is all driver skill. you have to really know how to drive to handle a 911 on the track. its not that its hard to figure out and learn or anything, its just somthing to get used to etc. people race 911s all the time, and throw em around and everything, and consistantly win. the thing is that they know how to throw the *** end around, and how to do conroll their cars. its all a work of art. so you will have no worries about conrolling it. also it depends on the class your driving in what your doing etc. im not an expert on anything with regards to racing but thats my 2 cents.
06-28-2003, 05:22 AM
#3
Race Car
What other people consider the 911's handling vices are the same things that allow it to come out of turns faster than other cars. It is common to see 911's beating cars with twice their power.
The 911 has more endurance, road-racing and club racing wins than just about any car ever manufactured.
The 911 has more endurance, road-racing and club racing wins than just about any car ever manufactured.
06-28-2003, 08:00 AM
#4
Why don't you put your 924s in scca ITS? Those Colorado region guys too slow for you??
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06-28-2003, 11:25 AM
#5
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If you love the balance of the 924/944's , why not just move up to a 944 turbo? They are not that expensive it seems. Or there's always the 928. Mark Anderson is pretty competetive in his.
06-29-2003, 02:48 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
Aye, a move to a 944 Turbo or a 968 would allow you to jump right into a car relatively similar to the one you are leaving.
I was a 911 "skeptic" until my first track day in the 88. It may take more effort/ability to get the 911 around the track, but at the end of the day, I believe it is/was faster than my 951 lap for lap.
As far as tossability and being "thrown" into a corner, I think youll find the 911 fairly capable and fun. Slow in, dont lift, fast out.
Its not as nicely balanced as the 924/944 cars, but there are just as many advantages with a rear engine design as there are disadvantages - youll be able to do things with the 911 that would be all but impossible with your 924. On the flip side of that, you can do things in your 924 that would send a 911 off the track.
Its all in what youre comfortable with - I am more confortable with a 951 (4 years of ownership vs. 6 months for the 911) but I love the chalenge that the 911 brings.
I was a 911 "skeptic" until my first track day in the 88. It may take more effort/ability to get the 911 around the track, but at the end of the day, I believe it is/was faster than my 951 lap for lap.
As far as tossability and being "thrown" into a corner, I think youll find the 911 fairly capable and fun. Slow in, dont lift, fast out.
Its not as nicely balanced as the 924/944 cars, but there are just as many advantages with a rear engine design as there are disadvantages - youll be able to do things with the 911 that would be all but impossible with your 924. On the flip side of that, you can do things in your 924 that would send a 911 off the track.
Its all in what youre comfortable with - I am more confortable with a 951 (4 years of ownership vs. 6 months for the 911) but I love the chalenge that the 911 brings.
06-29-2003, 01:47 PM
#7
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A "Spec Miata" might be a good choice. They can be had for $10-15K--ready to go. They go really fast, and have LOTS of support--race series, parts, service, etc.
I've seen several at DE's and they can hold their own against much more powerful/upscale cars.
Lots of bang for the buck.
I've seen several at DE's and they can hold their own against much more powerful/upscale cars.
Lots of bang for the buck.
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06-29-2003, 02:17 PM
#8
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by cmoss:
<strong>A "Spec Miata" might be a good choice.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">but it's a miata! I don't want a fish car. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />
<strong>A "Spec Miata" might be a good choice.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">but it's a miata! I don't want a fish car. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />
07-01-2003, 08:21 AM
#9
I don't like a nicely balanced car. I like something that has the ability to change direction very easlily and quickly. Thought I did like a balanced car years ago when I had only a fraction of the skill I have now. What seems unstable to some people, is just perfect for me. I like a tail happy car. I am faster in such a car. Then again, I am the kind of person who feels comfortable driving sideways all day long if I had to. I suggest reading Vic Elford's book on high performance driving. It is an incredible book that not only teaches the track basics, but goes into detail as far as the advantages/disadvantages of different engine placement configurations. Today, whenever I drive anything other than a 911, with the exception of racing karts, the front feels unresponsive or the chassis to hard to rotate.
Years ago I read an article that compared the Lotus 49 of 1967 against its competitors. It was considered the hardest car to drive that season. Even though it was good enough a chassis and engine combination, which made it competitive for years in Formula 1. It was considered to be a high effort/high gain car. Basically it was cater made for someone as gifted as Jimmy Clark. Guys like that generally get frustrated when driving anything more forgiving. They can only achieve their full potential in something that has an unforgiving nature. This is the same with Michael Shumacher, Jean Alesi and Juan Pablo Montoya. All three use an oversteering setup. They never use a neutral setup. There is something to be learned from that fact.
Of course, not everyone likes to drive a car that feels like an upside down broom being balanced from its tip. But one thing I know for sure. The only way to ever get good, and by good I mean capable of anything in any weather, is to master something with some inherent instability. This does not just apply to cars. In sailing, to be a competitive sailor in any boat, one has to master either the Laser, Finn or some other high effort/high gain boat. And boats don't come much more unstable than a Laser. In airplanes, just give an Extra 300 a try for a lesson in instability. Even though it is one of the tools of choice for competitive aerobatics. If someone is a master in a forgiving car, he or she will either not push hard enough in an unforgiving car or spin out everywhere. By the same token, someone who is a master in an unforgiving car, will just be a little frustrated in a forgiving car.
Personally, I truly love the feel of a 911's. I feel comfortable in them. Even past ten tenths. I also love the personal satisfaction of knowing that I learned to do things in them that a lot of people try to avoid. Because of that, I get a lot of enjoyment in helping others master these cars instead of avoiding their advantages which a lot of people call disadvantages.
Years ago I read an article that compared the Lotus 49 of 1967 against its competitors. It was considered the hardest car to drive that season. Even though it was good enough a chassis and engine combination, which made it competitive for years in Formula 1. It was considered to be a high effort/high gain car. Basically it was cater made for someone as gifted as Jimmy Clark. Guys like that generally get frustrated when driving anything more forgiving. They can only achieve their full potential in something that has an unforgiving nature. This is the same with Michael Shumacher, Jean Alesi and Juan Pablo Montoya. All three use an oversteering setup. They never use a neutral setup. There is something to be learned from that fact.
Of course, not everyone likes to drive a car that feels like an upside down broom being balanced from its tip. But one thing I know for sure. The only way to ever get good, and by good I mean capable of anything in any weather, is to master something with some inherent instability. This does not just apply to cars. In sailing, to be a competitive sailor in any boat, one has to master either the Laser, Finn or some other high effort/high gain boat. And boats don't come much more unstable than a Laser. In airplanes, just give an Extra 300 a try for a lesson in instability. Even though it is one of the tools of choice for competitive aerobatics. If someone is a master in a forgiving car, he or she will either not push hard enough in an unforgiving car or spin out everywhere. By the same token, someone who is a master in an unforgiving car, will just be a little frustrated in a forgiving car.
Personally, I truly love the feel of a 911's. I feel comfortable in them. Even past ten tenths. I also love the personal satisfaction of knowing that I learned to do things in them that a lot of people try to avoid. Because of that, I get a lot of enjoyment in helping others master these cars instead of avoiding their advantages which a lot of people call disadvantages.
07-02-2003, 02:27 AM
#11
Check again Lefty. For the most recent information, read this month's F1 magazine. There is an article that mentions Montoya's constant complaints to Williams during his first season where he was constantly battling with the understeer in that year's chassis. They kept telling him to drive the car a different way. He obviously dismissed that. Eventually they got it sorted. Now Villeneuve on the other hand, along with others, do like understeer. Then there are the true oversteer lovers like Jean Alesi who eschewed traction control for most of the year in which it was introduced.
07-02-2003, 06:56 PM
#13
Race Director
I have found my 944-spec car to be quite fast. In fact my 944 spec car is at match for many G-stock 911 SC. All that with a 131 RWHP stock motor, good basic suspension (no 5k dampers here), and weight reduction to 2450lbs. (Check my webpage for all the details).
Also there is nice 944-spec racing series to race with Arizona and Southern California.
The car is fast. Faster than a 100% stock 944 Turbo, but not quite as fast at F-Stock prepared 944 Turbo. (Just too much power to overcome the weight). In fact my car is ALMOST as fast as Ed Bihgi's stipped out oversteering Luftwaffe 911SC.
Bottomline.... Don't discount the speed potental of your 2.5L 924S!
Also there is nice 944-spec racing series to race with Arizona and Southern California.
The car is fast. Faster than a 100% stock 944 Turbo, but not quite as fast at F-Stock prepared 944 Turbo. (Just too much power to overcome the weight). In fact my car is ALMOST as fast as Ed Bihgi's stipped out oversteering Luftwaffe 911SC.
Bottomline.... Don't discount the speed potental of your 2.5L 924S!
07-02-2003, 08:31 PM
#14
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Can you please tell us what oversteer feels like in a 911? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Scary
07-03-2003, 12:52 PM
#15
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by cmoss:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Can you please tell us what oversteer feels like in a 911? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Scary</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You don't really feel oversteer in a 911 - all at once, you're looking at the oncoming road through the side window.
Seriously, if you do it well, you can actually feel the back end coming around. I do it all the time going around corners. Once you get the hang of it, you can hang the back end out around corners without completely losing it. If you're really, really good (which I'm not), you can actually cut corners by hanging out the back end.
Have you ever seen a video of someone in a 911 going around a hairpin by half-losing the back end the whole time? It's pretty entertaining.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Can you please tell us what oversteer feels like in a 911? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Scary</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You don't really feel oversteer in a 911 - all at once, you're looking at the oncoming road through the side window.
Seriously, if you do it well, you can actually feel the back end coming around. I do it all the time going around corners. Once you get the hang of it, you can hang the back end out around corners without completely losing it. If you're really, really good (which I'm not), you can actually cut corners by hanging out the back end.
Have you ever seen a video of someone in a 911 going around a hairpin by half-losing the back end the whole time? It's pretty entertaining.