Avenger6

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I see lately that several folks are posting requests for other folks to run Carfax searches for them. I see no replies, (Maybe someone is helping them out directly, so we don't see the reply.) so maybe this rant is pointless.

I am not associated with Carfax in any way, but have used the service in the past. CARFAX is a business. This service is available to us ONLY because somone believes they can make a profit by offering it. (This is true of ANY properly run business, anywhere in the world...It exists primarily to make a profit, and if it doesn't, it will soon no longer be in business.)

So, I would ask those folks attempting to get this for free, do you (or the company you work for) give away your product or service? If you did sell a service to one person, would you appreciate it if they let lots of poeple use it without paying? It also seems that if you are getting ready to spend several thousand dollars on a vehicle, the small cost for CARFAX would be worth it. If you don't think it would be worth paying for, don't attempt to get it for free.

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Avenger6
'75 911S (heavily modified)
'85.5 944 (stock, lots of miles, doing well)
'89 Toyota LandCruiser FJ62

cmoss

Strange how some people seem to think ripping off a "Big Corporation" is some sort of victimless crime. Perhaps some--in these post Enron days--feel justified. Most do not realize that such actons, e.g. supplying Carfax info, result in higher prices or a loss of a valuable service.

The phrase "Cutting off your nose to spite your face." comes to mind.

Cheers,
Chris

my944

Actually, I have let several people run Carfaxes off of my account when I have signed up for a month. That is why I feel that it is OK to ask for the use of a report from somebody else's account.

Carfax let's you run up to 20 cars for the subscription price. Most people run 1 or 2. So what is the problem with letting fellow Rennlisters, etc. use up the rest?

This is, in no way, an attempt at "ripping off Big Corps." This is using a product, that you have fully paid for, in your own discretionary manner. Personally, I would never buy a case of oil, use a quart, then throw out the rest if I could not use it by the expiration date (I know, oil doesn't expire, but you get the point). I would share it with people who needed it.

Avenger6

Not sure we can compare a product (oil) to a service like CARFAX.

The marginal cost for each quart of oil is included in the cost of the case. You have paid for all costs for getting the oil to you, plus a profit margin when you buy the case. With a service like CARFAX, the marginal cost for each search is very low, compared to the initial setup costs. Though they allow one user several queries, the true revenue stream comes from each new user.

Think of a health club. They charge each user for membership, not by number of visits. They won't allow you to hand you card off to other folks. The health club had very large start-up costs (building, equipment, etc., etc.) CARFAX operates in about the same way. They build the service, at large up front cost, and count on users to pay for using the service in order to recoup their investment and earn a profit. If we keep sharing our accounts, soon they will not make a profit, and then they will not exist.

I am not advocating some kind of charity toward this or any other company, but if they provide a service or make a product that you find vuluable, it is only right to pay them properly. If you do not find it valuable enough to pay for, do not use it. Simple market principles.

BTW, this is the same argument that exists around NAPSTER-like music piracy and software piracy, among others. The artist and/or the company sells a licence to one individual. You may, of course, listen to your CD as much as you want. But it is not fair to then take that material and start giving it away. It is not yours to give. I bet if you dig around in the user agreement for CARFAX, there is some language about the service being sold to one individual at a time.

The bottom line of my point is: If you don't want CARFAX (or any other useful service) to go the way of all of the other failed .com's, pay them fairly for their service and do not reduce their revenue by sharing your account.

my944

Avenger6

[quote] , I would ask those folks attempting to get this for free, do you (or the company you work for) give away your product or service? If you did sell a service to one person, would you appreciate it if they let lots of poeple use it without paying? <hr></blockquote>

This seems pretty ironic coming from a person who is currently using the information from this board for free when there are members, such as myself, that PAID for this priveledge and support the board.

And no, I am not upset with sharing my Porsche knowledge with you or other non-members. It just bothers me when people are hypocrites.

emac

Avenger6 -- Please -- dont pass on that you are in now way assoiated with Carfax. As they say you can snow the snowman but you cannot sh--the bull shi--er!!

Jeremy "Bravo"
emac

Avenger6

I do apologize for letting my membership expire while I am deployed to Afghanistan and Kuwait as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. Been kinda tied up, and haven't gotten a chance to keep all of my various memberships up to date. I'll have to wade through several months of snail mail when I get home and find all of the various renewals. I have probably missed my PCA renewal and my Excellence subscription, too.

I have a job for the next few weeks where I have computer access, so I surfed over to see what is going on at Rennlist. I'll get my membership updated ASAP.

Of course, this does not reduce my point. It was not made as a personal attack, rather as a discussion of economic principles and fairness toward an honest (as far as we know) business venture. You, of course, are free to act in any manner that you see as proper. I was merely making the point that, in a properly functioning free market system, everyone should happily pay a fair price for any good or service that they value, and should not give away something that is not theirs to give.

Avenger6

Jeremy - I am in fact a career military officer, having served as an Armor officer since I graduated college. (Being a tanker was the obvious choice for a motorhead like myself) I am currently assigned to the XVIII Airborne Corps. I am assigned forward, bouncing between Afghanistan and Kuwait in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

I am a believer in the free market capatalist system, which provides the wealth and comfort that Americans enjoy. I, and my brothers in arms, provide the security that allows the system to operate. I hold high hopes that capatalism and democracy will one day be the only system which exists on Planet Earth, since I beleive they are the only systems which maximize individual human potential.

Thanks for listening.

Avenger6

In case you were wondering (probably not, but what the hell) the "Avenger6" handle comes from when I commanded A Company, 2nd Battalion, 63rd Armor in Vilseck, Germany. Best time in my career, woulda stayed forever, but I had to go get "developed."

Totally off topic, but just trying to defend myself against accusations that I am somehow misrepresenting myself or doing something other than discussing uses of business services and how that fits into our free market system. I generally find that Porsche folks have other interests and that most of them are well educated people who like to think about and discuss other things. Sorry to all for dragging us off topic.

Carrera51

Avenger6:
Thank you for serving our country and helping further the American way. Maybe one day, there will be Porsches in Afghanistan.

Avengers point is well taken, but since Jeremy has paid carfax a fee in the past which entitles him to do vin searches on 20 cars, who he does them for be it himself, his friends or whoever is up to him. I don't think it is all that unreasonable for him to ask someone else in rennlist land to return the favor.

Avenger6

I agree with his point as it applies to products like oil. Once you pay for it, it is all yours, to do with as you please. You have paid for all of it. Use it, give it away, pour it on the ground, doesn't matter, it became totally yours once you paid the asking price for it.

Intellectual property and data services, in my opinion, fall into a different area. They are not selling their database or their system to you, only the use of it. If I get a chance, I'll look at their site to see if they have any kind of user's agreement, but I imagine they expect one user for each account. Their business model and plan probably didn't include multiple users per account. By letting other people, who have not paid for it, use the service, you are taking CARFAX out of the equation, essentially giving away something that is not yours to give.

I see the scenario as this: I am going to buy a car. I may look at up to 20 different cars, and desire to do a CARFAX search for each. Since I paid my fee, and they allow me to look at 20 records, we are both satisfied with the transaction. But, if I pay, look at one or two records, and then let several other folks use the remainder of my 20 looks at the database, CARFAX has lost revenue for each user that didn't pay. It does fit within their allowed paramaters, but I still feel it is not fair use. I have no idea what their margin is, but at some point, they might reach a point that the revenue coming in no longer covers their costs, and they must go out of business. We have then all lost something that was valuable to us.

I am not being accusatory toward anyone. I only hope to get people to look at this issue from a logical, business-based approach. Products and services are different, and are priced, sold, and used differently. This should be kept in mind.

Each person must choose what they think is right. No need to defend your actions to me. I know what I believe, and how I will act.

Your are welcome to enjoy the security that is provided by our service. I have had a lot of fun along the way, and am glad I have been allowed to serve as I have. Think about it: 70 tons of turbine powered, computer driven, big bullet shooting machinery, and I get to go tear-assing around the countryside, playing with all the switches, and shooting the big guns. What a hoot, and they pay me, too.

Again, if this is all way too off topic, I apologize. Sometimes these discussions take on a life of their own. All part of the fun.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Avenger6

I looked at their terms and conditions:

"You acknowledge that you do not acquire any ownership rights by downloading or printing the copyrighted material, or by using the Site."

This supports my point about it being different than a product in which you DO acquire ownership by purchasing it.

"CARFAX offers you access to the Site and to the Content available on the Site solely for your own personal and non-commercial use."

This supports my point about letting other folks use your account, since it is then not "personal...use."

And finally:

"BY VISITING OR USING THIS SITE, OR ANY PAGE OF THIS SITE, YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THESE TERMS OF USE, AND YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT SUCH AGREEMENT CONSTITUTES A BINDING CONTRACT BETWEEN YOU AND CARFAX, INC. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THESE TERMS OF USE, PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS SITE."

Not being accusatory to anyone, but I hope that if I am ever in a binding contract with anyone, you will follow the terms of the agreement.

my944

[quote] All part of the fun <hr></blockquote>

Agreed

[quote] I have no idea what their margin is, but at some point, they might reach a point that the revenue coming in no longer covers their costs, and they must go out of business. <hr></blockquote>

That would have been factored in when they created a business plan and the venture capitalists stepped in. VC's do not look at any situation with rose-colored glasses. Rather, they look at it in worst case scenarios to see if it is viable and to what degree.

[quote] But, if I pay, look at one or two records, and then let several other folks use the remainder of my 20 looks at the database, CARFAX has lost revenue for each user that didn't pay. <hr></blockquote>

They have not necessarily lost any revenue. As a matter of fact, dealers quite often dole the carfaxes out to perspective buyers en masse. Are you implying that they all should stop doing this and let these perspective buyers purchase their own Car Faxes?

Car Fax, in order to become such a viable business, had to approximate many different scenarios and I feel no monetary damages would be suffered by them if I did get the reports for the two vehicles that I need them for. The reason being is that I have no intention of buying a membership from them. And, since there was never any additional revenue in question, then there would be none lost.

Avenger6

I imagine dealers pay a large fee for a high number of database looks. (Much like a large corporation pays for hundreds of licsenses (never can spell that one right) for software) Since they don't let just anyone walk in and use their accounts, I submit that they are probably using the accounts in the manner thay agree to. We would have to look at their contracts with CARFAX, but they are probably buying the right to provide copies to potential buyers of cars they are trying to sell.

You, as an individual, pay for, and agree to only "personal use."

BTW, CARFAX is not a typical internet company, having started in 1986 and used fax machines to provide the data. The are part of a private, family-held business. Interesting, but probably useless knowledge.

Von Kiser

My co workers and I rotate when one of us has an "active" CarFax account because CarFax will only allow me one "30 day Unlimited account" per 12 month period. I would be more than happy to pay $19.95 a month for the unlimited account...but they won't take my money....instead the only alternative is the "One Time CarFax" for $14.99...this is ridiculous. I wish they would offer a yearly option or something a little more than a one time deal. I am by no means a dealer, but I buy 2 to 3 cars a year, clean them up, put them up for sale and drive them until I get what I am asking for the car. CarFax and myself could benefit from a compromise.

As long as technology moves at this rate you're going to have dilemias like this,

--Brian