Cory Jump

Hi I would appreciate any response to this topic.

I have been a longtime lurker and a member of this list for the last year or two. I was the service manager of a porsche dealer in the oklahoma city area for about 5 years before I pursued my lifetime dream/goal of owning operating a independant Porsche sales service new and used parts operation called Planet 9 Eleven. I have had many contacts with people on this list and have sold a # of parts to its members. I pride myself in honesty and straightforward business transanctions as well as the same kind of personal life. I have a question to post to rennlist members as to what the appropriate reaction would be to a particular situation.

I am going to give you the details to a transaction that I have had and would appreiate your opion on the proper end result.

I ran a add in the 911 parts classifieds 1.5 to 2 years ago for a 1978 911 turbo engine in need of rebuild. This engine was noted in the add as having a knocking noise. the asking price was $3500.00. (what does a good 911 turbo engine bring these days)
I recieved a e mail from a gentleman who was very businesslike and proffesional who offered me $3000 plus shipping for the engine.
We completed the transaction.
My invoice for the engine read very specifically
1978 911 turbo engine with knocking noise. needs to be rebuilt. AS IS NO WARRANTY.

This was in MAY OF 2001.

I recieved a telephone call today(OCTOBER 1 2002, 17 MONTHS FROM THE ORIGINAL SALE) from the individual who purchased the engine.
This individual informed me that he had just torn down the engine and upon inspection it had a rod severely twisted and the cap had come off the end of the rod allowing the engine to turn over and the rod and piston to stay stationary.
The Engine case has damage to the webbing as well as the journal on the cranshaft appears to be damaged. The affected cylinder was also cracked.There were also bent valves in the same head.
The individual sent me about 30 pictures showing the damage.

This individual has given me a couple of options as to how they would like to proceed with this business transaciton,
1
a full refund with me paying for the return shipping .
or
2
they keep the engine and I send them 2/3 of the cost of the core engine.


I consider myself a very fair person and have gone out of my way on numerous occasions to make sure a transaction is proper and fair

Do you think this person is justified in asking for their money back on a core engine in need of rebuild with a AS IS NO WARRANTY type of sale?

Keep in mind that this is 17 months after the item was delivered and in their possesion.

If someone was to call me 30 60 or 90 days after completeing a transaction and needed some sort of adjustment or another part to make them happy I would be extremely considerate of them and do my best to accomadate.

Please let me know if I am way off base here.

What would you do in my situation?

Thanks
Cory Jump
(405) 260 2911
cory@planet9eleven.com
<a href="http://www.planet9eleven.com" target="_blank">http://www.planet9eleven.com</a>

They

nate

Cory,

If the engine was indeed sold under the terms you described and you have those terms in ink on the bill of sale, then I would stick to your guns that the motor was sold without warranty or claim to be in perfect condition. The buyer has no claim to a refund. If you want to be a good guy and not burn bridges, etc, offer him the rebuild parts at your cost.

Nate.

Bins

In terms of the time frame, it is possible that he bought the engine but has only has had the chance to look at it now.
This individual needs a question to be asked of him. What was he actually expecting when he purchased the engine with a knocking noise and no warranty.
To me, (someone who knows practically nothing about engines), a knocking noise on any engine means very serious problems.
I agree with Nate if you want to be a good guy, and maybe offer him labour at a reduced labour cost, if its in your skills to have the engine rebuilt.

David J Ceruti

I am a cuatomer and I do a bit of training and organisation development work in the area of customer relations so this is from the customer's point of view
From the description of the engine in your ad it sounds as if it is running and there is a knock somewhere. Now this knock could be anything from a loose tappet to worn bearings. So it would need a rebuild, probably with bew bearings and maybe a bit of machining on the crank journals. I would definately not expect the sort of damage to the rod and crankcases you describe. this sort of damage would have been caused by a terminal bang rather than a knock.

You can look at this from legal or from a customer care point of view. From a legal point of view you seem safe. From a customer point of view, I think you need to do some serious work to keep this customer and your credibility in his part of the world from getting damaged.

The costs of the repair are a good investment in learning how not to make a similar mistake again

Martin S.

Cory...I amy have bought or sold a few things with you in the past. As I recall the deal was painless.

Caveat Emptor...Buyer Beware...you did your job. Unexpected things can happen when you buy used stuff with no warranty. I also observed the Buyer did grind you for $500.

Your reputation will remain intact if you were to do nothing or, ...you could offer to sell the buyer replacement parts at your cost +10% + freight, if that will make him and you feel better. And I would specify that this parts "deal" is conditional on the parts being ordered within 60 days, no 1 to 2 year re-build hiatus. That is the extent of what I would do to remedy the situation.

Greg S

I think the guy would have a case if he immediately opened the engine and found more damage than either of you contemplated at the time of the sale. But, it's now 17 mos. later and we don't know how the engine case, etc., actually became damaged. Did he try to run it and made it worse? Don't know. If it were right after the sale, I'd say you should work with the guy. This long after the sale, I don't see that you owe him anything, legally or morally. The suggestion to offer him parts to rebuild or repair seems reasonable. This opinion is worth what you paid for it.
Regards,

LoudC4

I would think in law there is nothing he can do.

From a customer service point of view you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you offer anything I think that might be interpreted as some admission of responsibility that may come back to haunt you despite your good intention at this time.

On the other hand, if you do nothing the guy could start a scathing attach on you and then you'll be relying on your past service and any potential clients who have not heard of any of his apparent 'nonsense'.

I guess in your position I would have to say that after 17 months - you gotta be joking mate! If he cared for his purchase he would have been sensible to get some early investigations going so he knew what he had recieved so that he could be sure what needed to be attended to was as you stated. I guess he could have his reasons but still 17 months is a l o n g time.

Cheers
Mark

Schuey

Too long of a time-frame...if you want to be a GREAT guy, offer him the parts at your cost plus shipping...it's too bad, but too long for you to consider anything else...

ked

If (upon disassembly) he had found a near-perfect engine, was he going to send you a check for another $3K? Have you ever had any other dealings with this customer?

Paul H

For $3,500, although he may nor believe it, he probably should have expected what he got.

If I were you I wouldn't do anything that would cost you money. Maybe try to re-sell the engine for him?

Carrera51

Cory:
Given the fact that you knew there was a knocking noise in the motor, leads me to believe that it was in a car and running at the time you took possession of it. Sounds to me like the purchaser may have put the motor in a car, ran it, decided whatever the noise was wasn't that bad, and proceeded to drive the car until he had a catastrophic failure. Of course there is no way to verify this, if this in fact was the case.

Given the fact that it has been 17 months since the transaction took place, you informed the customer that the motor had a knock and should be rebuilt, and the deal was inked "as is with no warranty," I am not so sure you are obligated, morally or ethically, to do anything. Based on your post, it doesn't sound like you missrepresented the motor in any way at the time of sale.

For clarification, I would consult with an attorney.

Eric-17

I agree with Carrera51 wholeheartedly. 17 months later is unreasonable...... You owe him nothing.

Good luck.
Eric <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Charlie Stylianos

Cory,

If this individual was doing his homework prior to offering you $3000 for a 930 engine, he would have known that a good running 930 engine cost at lest twice what he was offering. He was either hoping that the engine needed minor repair (rod, bearings, and possibly crank) and he was still getting a good deal, or he thought you did not know what the heck you were talking about (doubt it), and he was getting this 'deal of a lifetime'. I have a feeling once he dove in, the repairs were more than he expected and is trying to recoup some funds......obviously. Essentially, he gambled and lost.

Most Porsche owners, especially the ones doing their own work, DO do their homework prior to doing anything to their vehicles....especially engine work. If this individual is/was relatively new to Porsches or mechanics in general, and did not know what the symptoms of knocking were, he should have researched or asked. You are not responsible for his ignorance.

From a legal standpoint, if you have the bill of sale stating that 'engine has knocking noise' and it is being sold 'as is', you are in the clear. Also if you don't have an exchange/refund policy (30, 60 days, etc) I'm sure your city/county consumer laws will cover you.

I'm not sure what this customers' true intensions are/were, but you should not feel responsible for repairing, refunding or anything of the like. Like many others have said....you can offer your services again for parts, rebuild. Like the old adage says...'buyer beware'.

BTW: Corey...I'm sure you do run a honest business.

-Charlie Stylianos

scottb

I think the buyer needs to "get a grip." He bought an engine, sight unseen, that he knew had problems. He waited almost a year and a half to inspect the engine. He took a risk, and it turned out badly for him, but that doesn't mean that Cory has to be his insurer. Unless he can show that Cory knew about the engine's problems, or reasonably should have known, and misrpresented the engine's condition, it's not likely the buyer has much recourse -- especially with the "as is" condition of the sale. In other words, he'd have to show fraud.

Cory, the smart thing to do would be to sell him the parts he needs for cost, or cost plus 10%. At least make the offer.

johnnyquest

Kudos to the respondants and their basic knowledge of commercial law. Since I do this for a living, I'll bore you with the details. Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code, which governs the sale of goods, is pretty uniform across the states. Can't give you specific advice about your state, ... yada ... yada....

There are two issues here - (1)did the buyer accept the engine or can he still reject it (as not conforming to the contract), and (2)can he make a warranty claim? On the first point, the buyer is dead. Buyers have a reasonable time to evaluate goods purchased, and if non-conforming, can select among several remedies. His claim after 17 months is ludicrous. Most litigation over acceptance and rejection of goods is about whether 30 or 60 DAYS was too long to reject. And the amount of money at stake in those cases is much larger.

On the warranty issue, Sellers in the business of selling goods of the type sold in the transaction are deemed to make two warranties to the buyer. The first is merchantability - that the thing is what it is supposed to be, and the second is fitness for its intended purpose - that the goods will do what they're supposed to do. Both warranties apply unless they are specifically disclaimed. Lots of litigation turns on the specific language of the disclaimer, i.e., whether it mentions the words "fitness for the intended purpose" and "merchantability." Although your waiver does not include the magic words, the intent to disclaim is clear and the "as is" language has been ruled in some jurisdictions to be an adequate disclaimer.

Legally, you can tell him to buzz off. What you choose to do to retain the customer is another matter. I tend to look suspiciously at these type of claims. Carrera51 suspected that the buyer actually ran the engine til it failed, then decided to complain. He sounds like my torts professor, a guy who could see around corners.