viper vs. porsche
10-31-2002, 12:05 PM
#31
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Messrs. Mumford and Verges know of what they speak. I cannot say that I have ever owned a Porsche 911 - - I have only lusted after them since grade school. However, when the wallet got fat enough to buy one, the Viepr GTS was available and it just struck me.
I drive at RoadAtlanta at their open "Track Days" every two months and there are often a host of P-cars there ranging from 996TTs to 914s. I am an amateur driver that is placed in their "advanced" group with many of the other good (no, better) P-car drivers.
I can honestly say regardless of driver that the GTS is simply faster than the 993, 996 and 993TT in dry conditions. In the wet all bets are off !
I completely dominate the NA 996s. It just isn't close. Now RoadAtlanta rewards HP with its long back straight and it is very much a momentum track, but the reality is that the 996 just cannot hang with the GTS except perhpas on a very tight, techncal track wheer you simply cannot put the Viper through its paces due to wheelspin control issues.
I have found that the Ferrari 355 Challenge cars in the hands of a decent driver ae about an even match for my GTS street car with bolt-on mods and coil overs.
The P-cars that can hang with the GTS are the Cup cars and the 2,600 lb R cars. The latter are scary fast in the corners and if driven by a decent driver can certainly blow me away.
I have swapped cars with a good 996 driver who used to own a GTS. My impressions were that it is often going faster faster you think. This probably due to the pronounced exhaust note of my GTS ! I did not really push his car. He, however, did push mine ... off the end of the back straight, through the kitty litter and across the chicane stopping 10' from the wall. Boiled the brake fluid.
Which gives rise to my next comment that the GTS brakes truly suck ! To do them right means dropping appx. $6,000.00 on a Viper specific full race set up. The brakes suck partially because at the end of the staight you will be carrying a full 15-20 more mph than the 996 and it's a heavy car. Nevertheless, the stock brakes still suck due to the extreme forward brake bias and anemic single piston rear calipers.
I still love Porsches, but I wouldn't trade my Viper for one as I do enjoy the gawk factor it still generates after owning it for 4 years. How many times have drivers at a stop light asked to take a picture of your car for their kids ?
I drive at RoadAtlanta at their open "Track Days" every two months and there are often a host of P-cars there ranging from 996TTs to 914s. I am an amateur driver that is placed in their "advanced" group with many of the other good (no, better) P-car drivers.
I can honestly say regardless of driver that the GTS is simply faster than the 993, 996 and 993TT in dry conditions. In the wet all bets are off !
I completely dominate the NA 996s. It just isn't close. Now RoadAtlanta rewards HP with its long back straight and it is very much a momentum track, but the reality is that the 996 just cannot hang with the GTS except perhpas on a very tight, techncal track wheer you simply cannot put the Viper through its paces due to wheelspin control issues.
I have found that the Ferrari 355 Challenge cars in the hands of a decent driver ae about an even match for my GTS street car with bolt-on mods and coil overs.
The P-cars that can hang with the GTS are the Cup cars and the 2,600 lb R cars. The latter are scary fast in the corners and if driven by a decent driver can certainly blow me away.
I have swapped cars with a good 996 driver who used to own a GTS. My impressions were that it is often going faster faster you think. This probably due to the pronounced exhaust note of my GTS ! I did not really push his car. He, however, did push mine ... off the end of the back straight, through the kitty litter and across the chicane stopping 10' from the wall. Boiled the brake fluid.
Which gives rise to my next comment that the GTS brakes truly suck ! To do them right means dropping appx. $6,000.00 on a Viper specific full race set up. The brakes suck partially because at the end of the staight you will be carrying a full 15-20 more mph than the 996 and it's a heavy car. Nevertheless, the stock brakes still suck due to the extreme forward brake bias and anemic single piston rear calipers.
I still love Porsches, but I wouldn't trade my Viper for one as I do enjoy the gawk factor it still generates after owning it for 4 years. How many times have drivers at a stop light asked to take a picture of your car for their kids ?
10-31-2002, 02:08 PM
#32
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When I was shopping for my 99 Viper GTS, I seriously considered a 996. I actually think the Porsche is a better car from the perspective of design balance, but found the 996 to be a bit bland overall.
So many things in life need to be rational or logical - I didn't want my sports car to suffer the same restrictions so I bought the car that was exciting rather then sensible.
I've also been running track days, and within a broad range, 'fast' is determined by individual vehicle preparation and driver skill/daring. The really fast Porsches are typically modified (lightweight and normally aspirated) cars that have been very well set up and are owned mostly for track use. They are rarely the more expensive later model stock turbo cars.
Also, I have passed dozens of Porsches in my track prepped Z28, but you don't see me concluding that a 'Z28 is faster then a Porsche'. As far as the Viper goes, it will be quite awhile before I need a faster car.
Jim
So many things in life need to be rational or logical - I didn't want my sports car to suffer the same restrictions so I bought the car that was exciting rather then sensible.
I've also been running track days, and within a broad range, 'fast' is determined by individual vehicle preparation and driver skill/daring. The really fast Porsches are typically modified (lightweight and normally aspirated) cars that have been very well set up and are owned mostly for track use. They are rarely the more expensive later model stock turbo cars.
Also, I have passed dozens of Porsches in my track prepped Z28, but you don't see me concluding that a 'Z28 is faster then a Porsche'. As far as the Viper goes, it will be quite awhile before I need a faster car.
Jim
10-31-2002, 02:22 PM
#33
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I have been on a track (Willow Springs) with a Viper while in my modified 993TT. The Viper was pretty close in terms of top end speed to the TT (our car is about 500 HP), but we still pulled away on the straights. The driver was pretty good in the corners, but did not appear to be the cleanest or safest in terms of technique. Nonetheless, it was clear it was a fast car.
As an aside, on how the Viper compares to any Porsche - who cares? Most people do not buy Porsche so they can beat other cars (at least I don't think they do).
As an aside, on how the Viper compares to any Porsche - who cares? Most people do not buy Porsche so they can beat other cars (at least I don't think they do).
10-31-2002, 03:39 PM
#34
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Bill,
Concur with your last observation, somewhat. It may be that people are using the Porsche as some sort of performance yard stick.
My mostly track SC was blown away in a stop light Gran Prix by what must have been a Nitrous Honda. The fact that I was not racing was irrelevant. Had I gone as hard as I possibly could, I would not have even been close. I have a hard time imagining what others waiting at the light thought by the outrageously aggressive display.
The Boxster is not immune either -- when I had less then 500 miles on it, a guy in a very trick Corvette pulled along side and flashed an incredible roll of bills. His car sounded sweet, and he tried multiple times to goad me into some sort of impromtu street race.
Then just last week a really nice looking Z8 pulled along side with the paper tags still on the car. An older couple maybe in their 60's pulled along side at the light. I looked over and gave him a wave and a thumbs up -- which must have been his cue to perform an impressive launch and use the rev limiter for shifting.
My cars have also been challenged by Toyota Corollas, Honda Accords (with or without wings), and other milestone performance cars.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Concur with your last observation, somewhat. It may be that people are using the Porsche as some sort of performance yard stick.
My mostly track SC was blown away in a stop light Gran Prix by what must have been a Nitrous Honda. The fact that I was not racing was irrelevant. Had I gone as hard as I possibly could, I would not have even been close. I have a hard time imagining what others waiting at the light thought by the outrageously aggressive display.
The Boxster is not immune either -- when I had less then 500 miles on it, a guy in a very trick Corvette pulled along side and flashed an incredible roll of bills. His car sounded sweet, and he tried multiple times to goad me into some sort of impromtu street race.
Then just last week a really nice looking Z8 pulled along side with the paper tags still on the car. An older couple maybe in their 60's pulled along side at the light. I looked over and gave him a wave and a thumbs up -- which must have been his cue to perform an impressive launch and use the rev limiter for shifting.
My cars have also been challenged by Toyota Corollas, Honda Accords (with or without wings), and other milestone performance cars.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
10-31-2002, 11:54 PM
#35
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On the issue of hp/l, can someone clarify something real quick? The McLaren F1, the yardstick by which almost all supercars have been measured for the past half decade, makes about 100 hp/l. Yet, Honda's S2000 makes 120 hp/l. Does this point to Honda's supremacy over the very finest BMW engineers?
I notice, too, that the new Ferrari Enzo does not approach the S2000's specific output. In fact, despite a half decade's worth of development, and a radical new variable valve timing system, it makes no more hp/l than its predecessor, the F50. What gives? Thanks, all.
I notice, too, that the new Ferrari Enzo does not approach the S2000's specific output. In fact, despite a half decade's worth of development, and a radical new variable valve timing system, it makes no more hp/l than its predecessor, the F50. What gives? Thanks, all.
11-01-2002, 12:50 AM
#36
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[quote]Originally posted by Ed Bighi:
<strong>I knew something was up since it seemed to always be the Oreca team. They were also a very well financed team with a minimum of 4 cars at each event. Konrad, Rook, Rohr and Larbre Competition would have loved that kind of money, but they were never as fortunate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I wouldn't quite say "never." Larbre Competition'S Viper GTS-R took the FIA GT title last year, with a 1-2 at the 24 Hours of Spa. 2 other Vipers took 3-4 at Spa.
Larbre's Viper also won the championship this year, which wound up week before last. 4.5 points ahead of Lister Storm Racing. No 1-4 sweep at Spa, but Larbre did take the top spot.
<strong>I knew something was up since it seemed to always be the Oreca team. They were also a very well financed team with a minimum of 4 cars at each event. Konrad, Rook, Rohr and Larbre Competition would have loved that kind of money, but they were never as fortunate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I wouldn't quite say "never." Larbre Competition'S Viper GTS-R took the FIA GT title last year, with a 1-2 at the 24 Hours of Spa. 2 other Vipers took 3-4 at Spa.
Larbre's Viper also won the championship this year, which wound up week before last. 4.5 points ahead of Lister Storm Racing. No 1-4 sweep at Spa, but Larbre did take the top spot.
11-02-2002, 06:06 PM
#37
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I have a Viper now.
After looking at this post it made me think of the old Porsche.
Its hard to part with old cars.
<a href="http://www.vreracing.com/Porsche/Porsche2.wmv" target="_blank">My Old Porsche</a>
After looking at this post it made me think of the old Porsche.
Its hard to part with old cars.
<a href="http://www.vreracing.com/Porsche/Porsche2.wmv" target="_blank">My Old Porsche</a>
12-04-2002, 12:01 PM
#38
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Vipers, Porsche's Vettes.....A true sports car enthusiast would like each type of ar for what each offers.
I have raced both Porsche's and Vipers. Each are quite different and each have there flaws. But make no mistake the Viper is a very competitive race car on a road course. It is alot to handle but that is what seperates the men fom the boys. Still all in all I would race a Porsche any day when I have the chance, but I do enjoy the Viper more.
I also find that porsche drivers, as well as Viper drivers and Vette drivers all have passion for the car they race....so I say lets race on!
I have raced both Porsche's and Vipers. Each are quite different and each have there flaws. But make no mistake the Viper is a very competitive race car on a road course. It is alot to handle but that is what seperates the men fom the boys. Still all in all I would race a Porsche any day when I have the chance, but I do enjoy the Viper more.
I also find that porsche drivers, as well as Viper drivers and Vette drivers all have passion for the car they race....so I say lets race on!
12-04-2002, 02:27 PM
#39
Race Car
[quote]I've also been running track days, and within a broad range, 'fast' is determined by individual vehicle preparation and driver skill/daring. The really fast Porsches are typically modified (lightweight and normally aspirated) cars that have been very well set up and are owned mostly for track use. They are rarely the more expensive later model stock turbo cars.<hr></blockquote>This is absolutely true, but it takes all the fun out of the internet's 10,000 'I passed a Ferrari on the last open track day, so my S2000 must be a faster car!' stories. 
12-04-2002, 07:09 PM
#40
Wow, you can really FEEL the passion in the owners of each car. IMHO, the Viper is a very powerful brute of a car...Not as refined as a daily driver as the Porsche...But oh, what POWER! Someone please buy this 92 Viper #81 with just 303 miles! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-05-2002, 06:57 AM
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I would love to have a viper to drive during the times when my 911 is getting tweeked, other than that I think they are overated when the 911 is more bang for the buck!
12-05-2002, 05:08 PM
#42
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All;
Just came over from the Viper board to compliment you all. Thought this was a great discussion and, as several have observed, shows passion.
Some years back I attended the promotion ceremony of a friend who had made Brigadier General in the Air Force. My friend is all about being a fighter pilot. When it came time for his remarks, he spoke about the "mystical bond possible between person and machine."
I think everyone on this board--Porsche or Viper--knows what he meant. Life is good.
Just came over from the Viper board to compliment you all. Thought this was a great discussion and, as several have observed, shows passion.
Some years back I attended the promotion ceremony of a friend who had made Brigadier General in the Air Force. My friend is all about being a fighter pilot. When it came time for his remarks, he spoke about the "mystical bond possible between person and machine."
I think everyone on this board--Porsche or Viper--knows what he meant. Life is good.
12-06-2002, 03:18 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
There is a great article in the July Sports Car International. Viper GTS ACR vs Porsche GT2. Van Overbeek lapped the stock GT2 around Thunderhill in under 2 minutes (!!). The Viper in 2:04. He complained the stock Viper was harder to drive because of lack of feel and the well-known weak brakes. They thought it could be as fast as the GT2 with good brakes.
12-06-2002, 09:42 AM
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Well lets see a 160K 911 gt2 car versus a stock ACR Viper.....at half that price with stock brakes....HMMMMM....Lets add a less than 5K brake upgrade of 6piston front and 4 piston rears to that Viper and get a go again....Bet that $85K viper is much closer ...maybe even faster than a car almost twice the cost.
On a cost factor thats a no brainer.....just the same everyone has there own passion and what they like....If you LOVE a Porsche you are a Porsche guy....if you LOVE a Viper, you are a Vipernut....still all in all we are car guys!!
Now also Van Overbeek has been driveing Porsches how long? What Porsche guy wouldn't put in a faster lap in a car he knows? Put me or Pmum in that Viper and bet we are alot closer!
Will say this, with just 10 years of build time behind the Viper they have come a long way in building a sports car, and it has made its mark in the racing world.....especially given how long Porsche has been building cars!
On a cost factor thats a no brainer.....just the same everyone has there own passion and what they like....If you LOVE a Porsche you are a Porsche guy....if you LOVE a Viper, you are a Vipernut....still all in all we are car guys!!
Now also Van Overbeek has been driveing Porsches how long? What Porsche guy wouldn't put in a faster lap in a car he knows? Put me or Pmum in that Viper and bet we are alot closer!
Will say this, with just 10 years of build time behind the Viper they have come a long way in building a sports car, and it has made its mark in the racing world.....especially given how long Porsche has been building cars!
12-07-2002, 05:54 PM
#45
Burning Brakes
I probably understated how hard he said it was to drive the Viper fast. It looks like it takes a driver of exceptional skill to get the Viper around that fast. The GT2 was a lot easier to drive.
It's really not particularly hard for a manufacturer to make a car go fast. Just put in a bigger and bigger motor, wider and wider tires and a halfway decent suspension. That's what Dodge did. Making it smooth, quiet, with a comfortable ride, get good gas mileage, last for 200,000 miles or more, and have reasonable storage space is a lot harder, and that's why a GT2 costs so much. Even tougher is that Porsche couldn't start with a clean sheet. They had to start with a 911, a basic design from the early 60's.
It's really not particularly hard for a manufacturer to make a car go fast. Just put in a bigger and bigger motor, wider and wider tires and a halfway decent suspension. That's what Dodge did. Making it smooth, quiet, with a comfortable ride, get good gas mileage, last for 200,000 miles or more, and have reasonable storage space is a lot harder, and that's why a GT2 costs so much. Even tougher is that Porsche couldn't start with a clean sheet. They had to start with a 911, a basic design from the early 60's.