H2NO

I use ebay to gauge true market value on a number of things: cars, watches, lithographs - and I find it usually works as a good barometer for how much I will pay in the open market. However, according to this forum and a number of other sources, a 1987-1989 Carrera should fetch between 19k and 27k. However, the examples I am seeing on ebay rarely approach those numbers. I'm guessing it is due to a number of factors: few buyers in the regions where the car resides (which means shipping, travel, and a lot of unknowns added to the equation); the cars are rarely as good as they look (so prospective buyers run away after a PPI); and 7 days just isn't long enough to sell an older car.

Anyone have an opinion on this?

Droops83

I'd say because most of the "true" Porsche enthusiasts will not be looking for a car on Ebay. They'd rather get a car thats listed here or somewhere there's a good chance that another enthusiast owned it and took good care of it, and won't object to a PPI by a good shop. These types of people are willing to pay more for a nice car than trying to score a deal on Ebay. The Carrera 3.2s you refer to seem to be appreciating a bit, or at least strongly maintaining their value. This is because to many 911 people the 3.2 is best because it is the last of the "old" 911s w/ the original suspension design, no power steering, great road feel, etc. They are also the first 911s that were powerful enough to finally eclipse the '72-73 911S in terms of performance. These cars have their own set of mechanical issues of course but are among the more reliable of all the 911s and that helps value and desirability. And finally on the '87 and up cars you can get the better shifting G50 gearbox and a bit more HP. Most of the people who bid on ebay probably don't know most of this and will try to get a newer car, or bid on a '74 slantnose convertible!

At my shop we have had maybe 5 people buy Porsches sight unseen off of Ebay in the past few years, and none of them were as nice as advertised, all had major issues such as major rust and/or crappy bodywork, hokey wiring, you name it. One guy thought he was getting a '96 993tt and it turned out to be a rusty early '70s 911 w/ an SC engine and a bodykit, and the jack pads on the lift at our shop went through the car when they tried to lift it!!!! That is not to say ALL cars on ebay are junk, but make sure you bid on a car that is near you so you can look at it beforehand, or find a Porsche shop near the seller that will.

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Chris Andropoulos
Schneider Autohaus
Santa Barbara, CA

FRporscheman

I think you guys pretty much hit the nail on the head. To that I'd add that since eBay is often flooded with many different cars to choose from, and the fact that you sometimes never know what the owner is "asking" to get in the end, you just use the current bid of 50 other cars to gauge how much you think you should bid. If there were less Porsches on eBay, or if they all had Buy-It-Now prices, or both, then I think final prices would go up.

JackOlsen

From a statistical standpoint, it's probably safe to say that Ebay is the market. The high figures you see from the sales between educated buyers and sellers of well-taken-care-of cars are the exception, not the rule.

Most 911 buyers are new to the marque, and most of the cars up for sale (viewed broadly) are not in very good shape. Ebay makes it easier to sell a mediocre car quickly -- but it's probably safe to say that most of the 911's out there for sale (whether they're in a used car lot or some dusty garage) are mediocre.

Internet bulletin boards and owners clubs are great for creating a more-educated enthusiast, but they also lead us to believe that we're the norm, somehow, and not a small footnote to the broader marketplace.

Here's a question to put it in perspective: what percentage of 911 sales involve a PPI? I think most of us in the online/PCA community would answer that question with a ridiculously high number -- because we're a subset that knows better. In reality, I'd guess the answer is a single digit, and probably one that's lower than 3.

H2NO

I've been looking at a couple 3.2 Carreras at "exotic car dealers" and shops that also sell consignment cars. When I mention a PPI, the salesman looks at me like I'm a troublemaker. Why would you spend your money on that? We've already done it for you. You don't want to do a compression/leakdown test. If there were a problem, I would be able to hear it.

On another note, I had a guy tell me the other day that I should forget U.S. cars and buy his Euro car. He claimed that they are better and highly sought after. At that point, I decided not to do business with him.

Peter Zimmermann

I'll add to the above comments. I think that eBay is like the corner car lot, with a far broader customer base. My shop was located in Santa Monica, which some of you probably know is very near Marina Del Rey, Pacific Palisades, Bel-Air and Beverly Hills - all of which comprise an area of upscale homes and high incomes. The main artery that connects Santa Monica to Marina Del Rey is Lincoln Blvd. Along Lincoln Blvd are many used car lots, most of which have, at any one time, an assortment of used 911s. Many of those cars, with fiberglas body parts, incorrect engines, tinted windows and chrome wheels, sit proudly in the noon-day sun. Many are so shiny with ArmorAll and wax that you need sunglasses as you drive past. Almost all of those lots would not allow a PPI to be done by me, which probably hurt their business to some degree. I'm sure that not all of the cars on those lots were bad, but the percentage that were was very high. They blackballed me after I shot down a few cars, even arguing with me over this or that. Sooner than later I would get a call from a customer, asking me to come to the lot to "look" at a car. After politely refusing to do that, most callers would move on to private party ads in the L.A. Times. I think that eBay is the world's biggest Lincoln Blvd car lot - they're not all bad, but the chance of buying a really good car there is slim compared to other venues.
Pete

Edgy01

It's interesting to note the comment that many of today's used 911 buyers are new to Porsche. That's happening on the new end of the cars, as well. Most have little to no clue what is behind the engineering on the 991, 964, 993, 996, 997 cars. A little education goes a long way learning what a chain tensioner is, what an air box is, etc. Let's hope that more people get educated here on the Rennlist and other online forums so that they don't get stuck with the crap (can I say crap online?) that's out there. Oh yea,--buy the Euro car! Now that's a place that you can COUNT on getting something well used and put away wet.

Jay H

I bought a 1984 911 coupe in May of this year. Bought it sight unseen other than digital pics from another well known internet board. I also watched eBay very closely as I searched for the right car. I'll add my thoughts on the eBay market.

When I would find a very nice car on eBay (which was rare), it was typically owned by some high end used car dealership. Most of the time, the car would never hit the insanely high reserve, and would either drop off the auction site or get relisted yet again for the 5th time to see if someone would hit the (typically high) reserve the next time.

However, I used eBay like I would use the classified on this board or other well known boards. I'd contact that dealership directly through a simple Google search, then view their inventory on their own website and finally contact the dealership like I was cold calling on the car. I did bid on a few lower priced cars on line, but in the end, never wanted to subject myself to a bidding war on eBay or having to buy a car within the 7 day auction period which is barely enough to do enough discovery on an old Porsche that's 1000 miles away.

Pics on eBay are somewhat limited as well in that standard photo sizes allowed are 400 x 400 pixels and extra cost for slightly larger photos. Most of the time even the larger size photos aren't detailed enough. Most people can't take decent photos (not their fault, not everyone is a photographer or can afford a good camera) to really show the car's condition.

The cars that sold on the first go around typically had a reasonable starting price, good contact info for more questions and no reserve. Bang, those cars would be sold before the auction ended.

I think many people are aware of the pitfalls of buying a car off eBay and would rather just deal with the owner directly instead of being subjected to the rules and bidding on eBay. However, it's an effective way of getting exposure on your car for a sale that'll probably happen after the 7 day auction period is over.

Just my $.02

Jay
90 964
84 3.2

Honkity Hank

I thnk Jay H has it right, if the car is a dealership they are using Ebay as a advertising spot. If it is a private party they either have a crap car or a high reserve on a nice car that they are trying to unload quickly.

As for digital pictures, the resolution of most if not all digital pictures viewed on screen, not printed out, is just too low to show the details correctly. You can tell if a wheel is missing but not much else. All paint looks good the wheels straight etc. a personal inspection is needed and if you are bidding on ebay chances are you won't be able to so the bid price will be reflected in it.

r911

either have a crap car or a high reserve on a nice car that they are trying to unload quickly...

or -- they are in a very small market area! How many people would view your car advertised locally in Sheridan, Wyoming? Or MT, much of Idaho, SD, ND, AK, etc.

For that admitedly small proportion of sellers, eBay provides a chance to have people at least know their car exists...

Doug&Julie

I have another theory...have you ever watched a car that just has a price and asks for best offer? (i.e. - there's no traditional "auction" where bidding increases to a point..blah blah blah...) When the "auction" ends, they post the offers. Most are rediculously low. Some are absolutely stupid low. From this and the other points (some reasonably good cars just not making "value"), I would suggest that most (and I mean like 98% level "most") buyers are looking for a bargain. Other than highly collectible Porsches (true RSs, etc.), there are plenty of other outlets to pick up a Porsche. I think eBay shoppers are looking to save money...whether that's on a used DVD, a computer, or a car...even a Porsche. And as bargain shoppers, they're only going to offer the lower end of the "market"...no more.

Jay H

I agree. I was guilty of that too. There was a particularly rough '86 coupe for sale on eBay when I was looking (needed full paint, most likely needed body work, had oil leaks and needed a clutch). I bid to $8000 on it, figuring if it went for that amount, I could still fix it and be somewhat O.K. on it. That car never met it's reserve of $12,500. With the work it needed, it was not worth $12,500 and from conversations with the seller (a nice guy), he knew it too. He was just hoping for the best (or a miracle) on eBay to regain some of his 'investment' on a car he bought incorrectly (paid too much for a dog).

However, I was bidding only because I thought I maybe could get the car cheap.

dsher

just a short note on my e bay first experience. I had been looking for a 87 to 89 cab for about 6 months. the pca site here, auto trader and an expansive site based in Ca. as well as dealers who charge high prices and seem to specialize in them, I found a 89 cab 66k miles from dealer in Missouri who took the car in trade from a man in CA, the car did not sell on e bay, I contacted him after the expiration date on e bay, he gave me the bottom line $ he was looking for. He gave me the prior owner to talk and confirm the cars history and service and care, and arranged a PPI from several indep porsche shops to inspect car which i paid for, the car passed with very minimal issues, We arranged shipping of car to me in wisconsin with a purchase contingent on a second PPI at a local shop I trusted in,I paid shipping out and if car was not accectable he would pay return. WE found a few things and adjusted the price to reflect those items, and I kept the car. It is everything i had hoped for and no dissapointments. The car dealer was Willhoit in springfield MO , He explained that he uses E bay to expose the car but most sales are made after the auction expires by interested parties who need and expect more info and security before a purchase. So after a long winded relpy you can find good cars on e bay but takes more work than hitting < buy now> my 2 cents dave

flatsixnut

I bought an 83 sc that I had seen on ebay. It was on the east coast of Florida...I live on the West coast....so I drove over and checked the car out. The next day I drove back over again with cash and made my offer....The seller took it off ebay, and the car was mine. Nice car I might add.