theiceman

Okay the first thing you have to do is check out my pic on the "replacing crank seal" thread.
The cover with the drain hole on mine has oil coming out of it. So I decides I may as well fix it while I am waiting for my hanging off door parts to arrive.

Looks simple enough ... but don't they always....

to get to the seal I have to take the pulley cover/engine mount / mounting bracket off.

So first I take off the muffler , then I realize I have to take the cross brace off the bracket , put the engine on my Jack. undo the 4 bolts that fasten the cross brace to the bracket, still wont come off, so I remove the cross brace completely, still wont come off. Then I unbolt the bracket from the engine with one nut that I have no idea how to get back on, still won't move off the studs, have to take the engine tinwork off the back , but to get to those screws I have to take the exchanger hoses off , and to get to the screws I have to take the upper air hoses off, but to get the upper air hoses off I have to take off, the plastic plenum from the blower motor to the engine cover, getting the idea yet ?

So i takes that off , and thenget the air hoses off, and then I can see the 10mm bolts, take all those off, , voila the tinwork comes off and is quickly discarded into the corner with my other pile of parts. Okay now it HAS to come off ... NOPE , air pipe from air injectors running along bottom stop it from coming off..GGRRRRR

Not using that anyway so I bend the crapola out of it to get the cover off... finally , glad this looked so simple ..inspection reveals the oil leak is not coming from anywhere under that cover, but from further forward on the engine and just rickling back ,everything under the cover is perfectly dry ...

oh well , even iceman has his limits , I am going inside to sulk. :

Slotcar

I went through the same thing the other night...no joke it's like a jigsaw puzzle. I even had to remove a nut that supports the AC condensor bracket...mine however is leaking. Now I have to wait on my o ring to arrive for my intermediate shaft cover...hopefully the pulley seal will get replaced this weekend.

Peter Zimmermann

ice: Unbelievable! I don't think that I've ever seen oil drip from the hole in the bottom of the engine mount pylon that didn't come from one or more of the three things that we talked about. Obviously I always checked the distributor shaft/o-ring, the inboard ends of the cam oil lines, the oil pressure guage sender can, etc., first, but... It sure sounds like time at your house! Seriously, it's dry in there? The outside of #8 bearing (o-ring to case) can be real deceiving...
Pete

theiceman

Hi Pete , That was the deceiving part of the whole thing... if you look at the pic you would think oil is coming out right ? but acyually it is not , inside the cover at the bottom is completely plugged with dry old dirt.the oil in fact ws dripping from that point , but was not coming through the hole. I traced it back along the engine caseing and seams to be cming from the drivers side timing chain cover area. In fact if I didn't know better I would say coming down between the first cylinder and front of that timing chain cover ( towards the front of the car. ) . I may never fix this one.

But I do have a question. Are the aluminum washers on the valve covers actually suppose to stop oil coming out ? because I do have oil coming out of there, not so much around the gaskets ,and I can't see it sealing with such little torque. I know there are some seals that leak in the area but I have no idea where they are.

Peter Zimmermann

ice: Yes, the aluminum washers on the valve (rocker) covers are sealing washers. They should be replaced with the nuts at every cover removal. You probably read my recent post about shiny vs flat-finish washers - that's important (if not let me know). Also, the torque for the 8 mm cover nuts is 18 lb/ft.
Pete

theiceman

Hi Pete.

I am sure I read somewhere to not fasten the valve cover nuts more than 7 lbs, that might explain the leaking through the studs. Oh and one other thing. I without understanding the theory when I first got the car put stainless nuts on the valve covers with stainless washers. I since have bought a new valve cover kit with aluminum "dull" washers. Do you think it would be okay to replace them and torque to 18lbs? or do I have to start all over again with new gasgets. ?

PS I did identify the source of the other leak and I want to see wht you think . It is definitely running down between the timing chain case and that cylinder head on the drivers side at the very back of the car. Could this be a cam shaft seal causing this ? if that is the case I am pretty well screwed as that is a little beyond my level of expertise. It is running down the back side of the timing chain case, ( not the cover side ) and on to the heat exchanger, it is also travelling along the very bottom of the engine case back to the point in my picture and dropping down. Have you seen a leak here before. ? Also I have heard you talk about something else leaking that apears like the valve covers, what exactly is that ?

Thanks Pete.

theiceman

Well I am so freakinn annoyed. I spent all of last night and half of today and all I accomplished was cleaning the oil , went out for not even an hour today and when I got back it was dripping in the driveway. I am pretty convinced I have a bad camshaft seal or gasket , so that leak is there to stay for a while.
Since I wanted to fix SOMETHING I jacked one side of the car up. took off the leaking valve cover,sanded it on a table with some paper, ( it wasn't that bad even ) . I put it back with the same gasket ( silicon ) but with some permatex sealer on each surface and I put teflon thread sealer on the studs, fastened it to 89 inch pounds in 2 stages... If it leaks now ... either that ain't it or I give up !

Peter Zimmermann

ice: You describe a classic cam o-ring leak. The o-ring seals the inside of the chain case to the cam housing. Repair requires re-timing the camshaft.

Here's a reprint of my rocker/valve cover post: Torque confusion comes from a typo in Porsche literature. Spec charts list that "All bolts (including studs & nuts) on the crankcase and camshaft housing" that are M8 (8mm) are to be torqued to 25 Nm. Roughly, 25 Nm = 2.5 mkp. 2.5 mkp x 7.23 = 18 lb/ft. The translators, in much of the same literature, also list "Cover to camshaft housing" at a torque of 8 Nm. Unfortunately, this is where the typo is - they specify M8 when the book should read M6 (6 mm). They also should have clarified that the "cover" they speak of is not the rocker cover, it's the small, round internal cover that fits over the end of the camshaft inside the chain box. That cover secures to the camshaft housing with three 6 mm bolts torqued to, you guessed it, 8 Nm (5.9 lb/ft), and this is the cover that holds your leaky o-ring in place.

Now about anti-seize. I never authorized its use at the shop because of what we found on cars that had been serviced elsewhere and were in with us on a first time basis. Every car in which the plugs were installed with anti-seize there was a monumental struggle to remove the plugs, many times having to remove them 90 % of the way using a wratchet. On the flip side, on cars we serviced regularly, the plugs broke free from their washer lock and could be turned out all the way by hand. All that we did was apply a very thin coat of lithium based grease to the first few threads, and then install. The small amount of grease will "follow" the threads as the plug tightens, and permit easy removal 15K miles later. A side benefit to this is that there will never be a build-up of crud on the threads in the heads, and your next set of plugs will be just as easy to install.

Now, a final thought regarding rocker arm cover torque. I'm pretty sure that I've posted this before, but there are two different types of 8 mm aluminum sealing washers available to use with the nyloc nuts. They are the same in size, but one has an almost shiny (not as bright as chrome, but close) finish, while the other is a flat, medium gray. The shiny ones are no good, and will crush into the threads of the studs as the nuts are tightened. Guess what, they're from Taiwan. The flat, gray washers are from Germany, and are the same washers that are used on the perimeter studs of your crankcase - they will not crush into the threads. Because they maintain their integrity valve cover removal is much easier the next time you have to remove the covers. There are kits out there that can have the good or bad washers, return the kit to the supplier if those washers are shiny.

Torque covers from the center outward in an up and then down manner. Doing it in a couple of stages is fine.

Sorry, this post also had some plug content.
Best, Pete

theiceman

Thanks Pete , after all that work it is still leaking so I may as wel crank it a little more eh ? :-)

theiceman

Thanks Pete

That makes perfect sense because I could just not understand the logic of 8 lbs. firstly 8lbs would NEVER have an impact on a crush washer ( that is why I asked as it made NO sense ) . secondly if you are using new nylocks it takes about 3-4lbs just to override the nylock and since torgue is accumulite it means you would only really be holing the cover on with another 4-5 , barely enough that it won't vibrate.

I did just crank it up in a couple of stages but I think since it was leaking I may find myself taking it all apart again. Is there anything I can use to stop the the leaking from the rocker arm shafts? I see no seal but am wondering if I am leaking from their also .

Too bad about the cam shaft seal , that is what I thought also after looking at the PET last night, there is an o-ring as well as a gasket, that would be a VERY expensive oil leak repair. I may have to leave it .

On an interesting side note I jacked the car up last night on one side while redoing the valve cover and only lost about 100ml of oil during the repair .. not bad

I torqued with a criss cross patern and we will see how it goes ..

Thanks again.

Peter Zimmermann

ice: Diagnosing a leaky rocker shaft is straight forward. Of course the rocker cover must be off, then you can look at the end of each rocker shaft (a flashlight and good quality dentist's mirror work the best). If one is leaking the oil will puddle at the end that's recessed, or the oil's detergent will wash a narrow path in the crud directly below the end that's flush or has a slight protrusion.

Your cam o-ring situation will require a few tools, primarily a dial indicator that can reach the valve spring cap, a way to hold the indicator tight, and a way to loosen and torque the cam. Unfortunately, on an engine where the o-ring is leaking, you can be stepping into one of those minefields with tensioner and chain guide problems, etc. If your car already has Carrera tensioners the job will be much easier, and can be done with the engine in the car. That said, it's difficult to do sitting on a creeper - much harder than standing under the car with it up on a hoist.
Pete