Rick964

I have seen more than a couple of Carrera 3.2s that have just the front black rubber lip spoiler and no tail. The owners all seem convinced the cars came from the facotry that but I always thought the factory only shipped cars with matching front and rear spoilers or none at all.

Am I wrong here? I like the rear tail look on the cars so I will be adding one anyhow, I'm just curious how these cars really did come.

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Rick:

These cars came with either no spoilers or the optional matching set of the front lip & rear tail.

It very dangerous to run these cars with the front rubber lip without a matching tail of some kind: ducktail, Carrera tail, Turbo tail, or electric 964 decklid. The reason is due to excessive lift cancellation up front that creates a pitching moment over the axle that increases the already too much, rear lift.

This generates high-speed (over 70) oversteer and makes the rear end loose in sweeping curves.

People do what they like for cosmetic reasons, but it doesn't mean that its a smart thing to do,...

"Caveat Emptor" on anything but a matched set of F & R spoilers, Sir.

Rick964

Thanks Steve, that is what I thought. My car will be for track use so spoilers will be going on.

JackOlsen

I hate to disagree with Steve, but I've talked to many guys who deleted front or rear spoilers when they ordered a new 911. According to them, it was just part of the optioning process. No one at PCNA made them sign a waiver or anything.

r911

Whare we including in the term spoiler? For example, is the "S" type spoiler (air dam) included?

Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems

Jack:

As I said, spoilers were optional,.......(and most were dealer-installed options at that, here in the US).

Thank God (and the Constitution) that its a free country so people can do & buy what they wish. In 33 years, I've never met anyone at the dealer level in the Porsche network that knew enough about spoilers to make an informed recommendation to a customer. There might be a few, but I'd wager that those fine folks are in a very small minority.

r911

Want to give us some subjective ratings of different front-ends?
- no air dam at all (stock on early early cars)
- "S" type
- RS type (w/oil cooler) - same as S type or worse?
- 1975 & later
- 1975 & later with that rubber air dam extension

How bad are these rel. to each other?

ked

along the lines of Steve's last comment, I suspect that dealers installed fact frt spoilers to new cars at the request of the buyer (or God forbid, the Sales Mgr / Parts Mgr). Most buyers may see this as "installed by factory".

there is a long history of confusion about aerodynamics & the 911, starting at the factory itself as they began to study the downforce & lifting loads of the 911 in racing where high speeds were achieved. we are fortunate that the 911 was one of the first sports cars where aerodynamics really mattered AND the factory transferred their racing research to the production cars. I have read (& felt!) the influence of spoilers on 911s at surprising low speeds (that's why the elect ones raise at those speeds) & that influence applies in curves & ascents / descents as much as on straights.

Since I prefer the appearance of the 911 w/o spoilers (& non-spoilered cars exhibit less drag), I am very sensitive to proper susp tuning & ride height - how those settings act upon aerodynamic balance is key. however, nothing short of underbody venturis will achieve the downforce of a proper set of spoilers.

Frere's book "The Porsche 911" has a very good treatment of the development of 911 aerodynamics, & there is good insight in Leffingwell's new 911 book.

johnnyo

A front spoiler without tail can be used safely and the car will benefit, conversely a tail can not be used alone without the front spoiler aerodynamic issues.

ked

"It very dangerous to run these cars with the front rubber lip without a matching tail of some kind... due to excessive lift cancellation up front that creates a pitching moment over the axle that increases the already too much, rear lift."

somehow, I think Steve's advice is the wisdom. perhaps it is safe if you don't drive at speeds where the aero effects occur... further, once they entered the "spoiler era", I don't recall the factory running competition 911s without spoilers balancing the frt & rear aero. {"back in the day", drivers like Vic Elford were quite successful w/ pre-spoiler 911s, but I suspect he was thrilled when they started using them - on both ends.}

r911

speeds where the aero effects [are significant] - they occur at all speeds

- also this relates to air speed not ground speed - it is easy to encounter air speeds 30 mph greater than your speedometer reads in Wyomng, eastern Oregon, and other parts of the plains.

Jay H

I've never seen an option code for just the front spoiler.

Jack O: I respect your opinions and knowledge. Do you know if these new cars came from the factory with only one spoiler or was a spoiler removed by the dealership in these cases? I can't see Porsche opening themselves up to liability from odd handling by equipping cars with only one spoiler.

Again, I'm not that knowledgeable, but as an amature concours judge, I've looked at quite a few original cars and have not seen solid proof of cars factory equiped with one spoiler - which would go along with what our expert Steve W is stating. I would assume that for someone ordering a new 911 back then, the dealership would easily add just the front spoiler if a customer wanted one. (I wonder why these people would add just the front spoiler...?)

Ked is right on Frere's book. There are some convincing numbers in that book.

I've driven narrow body cars with no spoilers back to back with narrow body cars with a front spoiler and a Turbo tail (80's style). It's amazing how much more planted these cars get with spoilers at speed.

Just my $.02.

Jay
90 964

r911

have not seen solid proof of cars factory equiped with one spoiler -

-- several examples of RS's w/o the duck but w/ the front spoiler in Konrdsheim's book