Is it OK to hold the clutch in on a G50 while waiting for the light to turn green?
12-01-2005, 01:19 PM
#31
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12-01-2005, 05:35 PM
#32
Poseur
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Originally Posted by Peter Zimmermann
Hmmm, from the Peoples Republic of Santa Monica to the Peoples Repub...
Here's one for you. If you save the T.O. bearing from an ever so slight premature failure, you'll spend that money on a new starter sooner! Remember, if you don't depress the clutch pedal when you start the car you are also "starting" (cranking) the transmission. That thick oil is loading up that poor starter in a way not accounted for by its designer. If you place the car in neutral and start it with the pedal released you're breaking BIG BROTHER'S rule of safety. All newer cars that I've driven require, by BIG BROTHER, that the clutch pedal be depressed to release a starter lock out. If I hadn't pushed in the clutch to start cars for the last 40 years (I was taught that way), that safety stuff would really be irritating!
Cheers! Pete
Here's one for you. If you save the T.O. bearing from an ever so slight premature failure, you'll spend that money on a new starter sooner! Remember, if you don't depress the clutch pedal when you start the car you are also "starting" (cranking) the transmission. That thick oil is loading up that poor starter in a way not accounted for by its designer. If you place the car in neutral and start it with the pedal released you're breaking BIG BROTHER'S rule of safety. All newer cars that I've driven require, by BIG BROTHER, that the clutch pedal be depressed to release a starter lock out. If I hadn't pushed in the clutch to start cars for the last 40 years (I was taught that way), that safety stuff would really be irritating!
Cheers! Pete
MANY years ago a buddy of mine (with a 914) just could not start his car one winter morning in Germany. (I was a 911 driver at the time). I said, "let me try." I put the clutch in and cranked it. It started right up. Having the starter NOT turn all that mass helps a lot! It was all it needed to turn over.
I think it would be very helpful for people to be able to see inside an engine and transaxle to understand WHY this is better to do.
Dan
12-02-2005, 04:34 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
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Peter Zimmerman,
".. if you don't depress the clutch pedal when you start the car you are also "starting" (cranking) the transmission"
I am confused. If you have your gear at nuetral when starting your car, why should you have to depress your clutch? Unless the new car nowday, it is required to depress clutch to start. Otherwise it won't start.
Can you go a little more in detail why it is bad for the starter?
".. if you don't depress the clutch pedal when you start the car you are also "starting" (cranking) the transmission"
I am confused. If you have your gear at nuetral when starting your car, why should you have to depress your clutch? Unless the new car nowday, it is required to depress clutch to start. Otherwise it won't start.
Can you go a little more in detail why it is bad for the starter?
12-02-2005, 02:42 PM
#35
Poseur
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Originally Posted by M491
On starting, I always push the clutch in AND have it in neutral. Mostly for safety reasons. Sometimes a gearbox can feel like it is in neutral but be in gear, and I'd hate to run it through the garage door on startup! Just seems safer to have a habit of clutching in on startup on a manual (and it's required on most modern cars, too).
On waiting at lights, I combine Steve and Pete's advice. I wouldn't ever just sit with the clutch pedal down. But, I anticipate the light, and push the clutch in several seconds before the light changes. I err on the side of pushing in early. I never push down the clutch and immediately jam it into first. I'd rather have the clutch down for 5-10 extra seconds than do that. But I agree that having a habit of keeping the clutch down for 60-90-120 seconds at every stoplight causes unnecessary wear on components.
That wear may not matter to those who wear out clutches quickly, but I easily get 80, 90, 100K+ miles out of a clutch, and that includes a good deal of city driving. So I need all the clutch related components (TO bearing, etc.) to last as long as possible.
On waiting at lights, I combine Steve and Pete's advice. I wouldn't ever just sit with the clutch pedal down. But, I anticipate the light, and push the clutch in several seconds before the light changes. I err on the side of pushing in early. I never push down the clutch and immediately jam it into first. I'd rather have the clutch down for 5-10 extra seconds than do that. But I agree that having a habit of keeping the clutch down for 60-90-120 seconds at every stoplight causes unnecessary wear on components.
That wear may not matter to those who wear out clutches quickly, but I easily get 80, 90, 100K+ miles out of a clutch, and that includes a good deal of city driving. So I need all the clutch related components (TO bearing, etc.) to last as long as possible.
What we REALLY could use here in the USA are the German traffic signals that turn to RED and YELLOW before they go to green. It clues you in to get into gear.
dan
12-02-2005, 04:19 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Hi rnln: I was simply assuming that everyone understood the risk of starting a manual transmission car in neutral. That risk, of course, is if the car really is in neutral. I was taught by my dad and two older brothers to always depress the clutch at start up, this takes all the guesswork out of whether or not the car is really in neutral. Permit me a quick story. Quite a few years ago a restoration specialist that I know of had two extremely valuable cars, that were in for service, parked end to end. After the majority of work was done on one of them the specialist reached inside, checked the shifter (it looked like it was in first), and turned the key. The car was in first gear, started instantly, and launched itself into a '50s vintage, handmade aluminum bodied car. The damage total was about $30K! When I heard the story I realized that the discipline my dad instilled in me many years earlier would always protect me from that type of incident. That's the primary reason for starting a car with the clutch pedal depressed. Please remember, I started between three and twelve Porsches every day at my shop. Some of those cars arrived with out of adjustment shifters, shift bushing issues, clutch problems, etc. I could not risk starting a car without the clutch depressed, again that discipline served me well. By starting every car the same way I could usually diagnose mechanical problems before the car was on the hoist. If the car started, and jumped a little, I knew that I had a cable breaking, or a problem which created an adjustment issue. If, after starting, I moved the shifter around I could feel a possible synchro problem, etc. The point is, my method prevented me from creating more damage than was already done. The second plus is that if you're going to depress the clutch for safety reasons, you will benefit from the transmission being disconnected from the engine, which reduces the work load for the starter. The same action that "disconnects" the engine and trans to allow gear changes also allows the engine to be cranked without the starter dragging along the trans. I hope this clarifies for you the points that I have made. Everyone has to decide for themselves the method that works the best. This thread started with a question about what to do at a stoplight. I've always maintained that cars with 915 transmissions should be driven a certain way, by placing the trans back into first just before the car stops rolling, and keep the pedal depressed while waiting for the green. I have to stress that suggestions of this type will always have exceptions. (The thread subject, the G 50, is much more forgiving but still requires technique.) If your regular drive has a stoplight that takes a minute or longer to turn in your favor, of course you can put the car in neutral. But you, the driver, should also participate in the driving process and anticipate when the light will change, and be ready to go when the light turns green. Most often there is not sufficient time to fool with different gears before finding first. Our society is no longer a polite one. The guy behind you is in a hurry to get to Starbucks, or he's late for work. He has an automatic transmission, 300 hp, and a loud horn. If you're not ready to go, he is, and will let you know it. Stress levels climb, and who needs that?
Pete
Pete
12-02-2005, 04:50 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
Along w/ what Pete's saying, even though I slip her into first as I'm coming to a stop, then into neutral while waiting for the light to change, I also watch for the yellow light (going the other way), and shift back into first so I'm ready to go the instant the light turns green. If I can't see the 'other' light, I'll 'anticipate' after sitting there a while and minimize the time I have the clutch in.
