fixnprsh

E36 M3 isn't insanely fast in a straight line, but to drive one in a drag race is to miss the point entirely, If you are a fair shoe, it is an excellent car.....................and its not a matter of siding, BMW just makes a few wicked little coupes

r911

"I can't believe that there are guys on a Porsche forum siding with BMW."

- I like BMW's esp. the older ones) - I cut my teeth on a 2002. For some uses a BMW will be superior to a 911 - Q ship; carrying 4 adults, etc. Your post makes it look like we should have blind loyalty to Porsche - I don't agree. My loyalty is to the functional excellence of the car for sports purposes, not to a badge name. Dr. Wienie-King would love to trap more people into such blind loyalty - he can then further decontent the cars while charging huge prices -- just like Cadillac and other Amer. brands did before the Japanese cleaned them out.

fixnprsh

I would love to have a 2002 thats another dream car, the Tii was awsome but so hard to find an original that hasn't been converted to webers, atleast they are out of the smog loop now in CA

AFARR

Not going to get into the basis of the discussion (E36 vs. 911), but I will throw in on the E30, just a bit. I like the E30 vehicles (had an '87 325e and am working on a '91 318is)--they handle wonderfully well. While neither is the M3 (and, as some have pointed out, the M parts are prohibitively expensive--but, non-M parts for the E30 are quite cheap), I have always been happy with how they performed--even the Auto Tranny 325e was a nice car.

But, I have always thougth of getting a blown engine (nice body, etc) 325 and putting a 3.3/3.5 liter (from the 633 or 635 of the same era) into it--a common swap, and fairly cheap (E30 recipient Car $1k with bad engine, $1k E24 Engine). The weight distribution (if done correctly, and pulling things like the A/C and Power Steering out) doesn't change too significantly--ads a nice burst of power to a light car that handles very well....

So, instead of voting in the poll, I'm Writing In:

$17k for 911
$3k for project car above==> best of both worlds (might have to change $$ distribution if you have someone else do the engine conversion)

2002M3Drew

The only time that a vintage 911's rear end will "snap" and oversteer is when the driver errs and lifts mid-turn, and to a high degree (or braking in this same case, of course). In either situation, the weight is trasferred from the rear wheels to the front, and with all the weight in the rear, it will want to swing. Under power, however, that rear isn't going anywhere. If it does push under power, apply more power and ride it out. A well-placed throttle lift mid-turn, however, is effective line correction technique.

I agree that the E30 M3 is a terrific car, handling, engine and otherwise. I have always been a big fan of them since their introduction, and is probably a big reason why its younger brother sits in my garage next to my Porsche.

Wayne Williams

Sorry to offend Randy but I am not a "badge loyalist". The build quality of the Porsche is far superior to a BMW. I would like to see an E36 in 23 years time - hell, even the '99 328 I had was starting to fail.

If the 911 was badged as a BMW/VW/Audi/whatever, I would still love the car to bits for its looks, handling and charisma.

For your info, it was a toss up between the 911 and an EVO M3 when I was looking to buy.

We are entitled to our opinions/views/likes/dislikes - I am not trying to pledge all allegiance to Porsche!!

r911

I'm not offended.

"The build quality of the Porsche is far superior to a BMW"
- not anymore, it isn't -- also BMW used to have better build quality also.

fixnprsh

BMW's build quality is far superior and has been for awhile. Don't argue with me as I work on both for a living.

As much as I love Porsche and 911's in particular, face it, they don't handle that well unless you seriously spend alot of money but the basic design and physics principals are the same, If your on the gas hard in a corner, there is next to no weight on the frontend and it plows (gets even worse once the tank starts to empty), or if you're in hot lift, the back end becomes a huge counter weight and tries to pass the front end, where a BMW will slide and scrub of some speed due to its balance and you can steer it back in line with the gas pedal.

I own a Carrera and my 4 cylinder GTI will murder it down a canyon road and its front wheel drive!

I have spent serious wheel time in both brands around town, the track, and canyon roads and I assure you the BMW is a far less stressing and predictable runner, and the E30 M3 is a bullet train in a canyon. Both cars have ther pluses and minuses, but as far as handling, you can't beat BMWs chassis.

Wayne Williams

Well, as I said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I find the 911 better than the M3. Its all down to personal preference.

Just because you work on both does not make you an expert no more than me.

To me, this thread has now become a "my car is better than your car" argument and lets hope the moderators step in.

No hard feelings Randy and Fixnprsh

My87Targa

i have beat a E36 M3 from a stop and a roll befor in my car. no biggy.

i think it comes down to driver, it all depends on how far you are willing to push the cars, not many people have the ability to push the car beyond its limits more so they just surpass their own limits. i will say the 911 is an unforgiving car and when you have to react quickly is can be sorta intense where as the M is more docile about it. but me personally i wouldnt trade it for the world, sure ive had some bad times in my car and ive ended up off the raod being follish or ive spun out just going simply too deep into a turn for my own talent but that happens and you live and learn.

i think the 911 is a great car i like the response it has, tho at times it leaves me wanting much more power i just take a skip down a back road and the car is right at home with its self.

you really just gotta drive the cars for yourself and see what you can do with them. im sure i could walk away form some M3 drivers but also some others would walk away from me, its all in how good you know your car, and how good you know your own driving abilities.

fixnprsh

to drag race an M3 is to miss the point completely, I know of several Hondas that will spank the crap out of 996TT, is it a better car? Lets see the Honda stop and steer! I say lets set up a trackday at Willow, Porsche VS. BMW and lets have some fun, once my Carrera is done, I'll come out for sure, or I'll take the GTI but that just wouldn't be fair to you guys if we raced the streets! I think we have enough of us to this in socal, we could post up on the BMW board, Willow or Buttonwillow.

And as far as working on them, I don't claim to be a complete expert, but when you have worked on both brands and built race cars and fast street cars out of both brands, you might gain some insight into what works, and what doesn't on the street and track in both cars.

My87Targa

:yawn: i never bought this car just to handel or look good, i drive the car every day and most the races i see are on the street. no one can say they dont like to go fast straight line or that they dont wish their car had more ***** to it.

i know what the porsche and bmw were made for and there was never any intention of going fast down the 1320 but i like to play a different card from time to time. as i also said im fairly confadent that i can beat a M3 in the twisties, i dont need people to tell me what my car can or cant do because every driver is different, just like i know there are m3s out there that will destroy me.

it comes down to what you like, what you feel confortable in and how well you adapt to your car and its ability to manuver in a wide aray of situations.

m3333hp

[QUOTE=M491]
The E36 M3 is a good daily driver car. But I've always thought of it as an "M-lite" M car. It has a 240 hp "US only" engine, while the ROW got the "real" M engine.

On the E36 M3: The US version has buckets of torque and is a wonderful car to drive at all speeds. The "real" Euro version of the E36 M3 engine is quite peaky, and so is the E46 M3 engine. To see what this means, in the mid-1990s Roundel magazine did a direct comparison test on a race track near Toronto between one of the 1994 E36 M3s that came to Canada with the "real" Euro 282 hp engine, against a 1995 US version E36 M3 with 'only' 240 hp.

The US version was slightly faster to about 100 mph, then the Euro car inched ahead. That's what torque does.

Having built a number of high-hp peaky street engines I can tell you that I would trade them all for a fairly light weight car with lots of torque---which is exactly what I did when I bought my 4-door 1997 M3, which has even more torque than the '95 M3 that Roundel tested since it has the 3.2 engine (236 pound-feet) instead of the 3.0 engine (225 pound-feet).

If you doubt that torque is what you want for North American driving, get a good E36 M3 on a highway at about 65 mph in 5th. Get it next to another car going the same speed, and watch the other car out of the corner of your eye. Then nail the throttle and watch what happens to the other car. This illustrates how I describe what it's like to drive an M3: like driving in a video game--no extra noise, no strain, just simply lunges away from the other car in a way you would not think possible for "only 240 hp".

Porsche content: If that other car is a 911 made before 1990, and if the driver nails the throttle at the same time the M3 driver does, the M3 will walk away from it, too. But it will not do that to later 911s. So, 3.2 liters-for-3.2 liters, the M3 wins hands down. Handles better, too, since the 4-door E36 M3 does .91 G on the skidpad, which bests the 3.2 911 Carrera not to mention most other sports cars made (but does not better recent 911s). Of course much of that is the wider, soft tires that the M3 comes with, compared to the older, narrower tires on the Carrera. Transient response is about the same as the 3.2 Carrera, as is braking.

Not bad for a 4-door that you can pick up you son and his friends with. Also not bad for the $15K I paid for it 3 years ago, during which not one single thing has gone wrong with it. (Note: $15K = used Honda money).

I think 911s are fabulous sports cars, but to answer the question posed by the person who started this thread, the M3 wins this contest because it is the best bargain in performance AND reliability in the known universe. And I'm still waiting to use the $5K I saved from the $20K I (conceptually) started with to fix something that needs fixing on the M3. Well, I did need new rear tires fairly quickly.....

Peter Cain
somewhere in Canada

m3333hp

Having driven both E36 M3s and 911 SCs I can tell you with certainty that a properly running 911 SC will not even come close to out-accelerating a properly running E36 M3, at any speed. After all, it is 180 vs. 240 hp, so not too surprising. Did you consider whether the other driver was really trying, or maybe just not a very good driver, or maybe the car was in need of a rebuild and not producing much power---I have driven a few 911 SCs with that exact problem--their engines were "tired".

By the way, you should post more often with your helpful automotive analyses regarding "pimp cars". That was good. You might be surprised at this but many of us actually like ALL well-designed, well-made performance cars, even BMWs.

Peter Cain

My87Targa

i beat a E36 M3 from a dig and a roll im bone stock explain that??? and yes i know the guy was trying cuz he went out of his way to pull a U turn and chase after me so we could race.