fixnprsh

[QUOTE=m3333hp]Funny you mention that, Its not a well know fact that the 4 door M3 is significantly stiffer than the 2 door thanks to the B-pillar

fixnprsh

It's a VERY well know fact that the E36 M3 is easy to rip off in a 325 or 318is as you can buy the bumpers and emblem right of of ebay.

So you probably raced a kid in a 172HP autobox 325is with a M body kit that didn't know how to drive, they are everwhere (one of the guys I work with has one, dead ringer untill you open the hood).

We aren't doubting your SC is a fast car, they are and really come alive with cams and a set of SSI's, but come on, I have a Carrera, Its a nice car and will be damn fast once the build is finished, handles ok, but my $7000 GTI will leave it eating shreded rubber and for what I have spent on it I could be in current possesion of a built 400hp S/C E36 M3. Come out to Willow and play with the BMW's one day, after that there are drugs and therapy for you. Afterall denial ain't a river in Egypt.

m3333hp

Ah, actually, the conversation was about an SC (180 hp), not a Carrera (214 hp). But your comment is interesting. Were you in 1st gear and the other guy in 4th? Do you know what kind of driver he was, irrespective of whether he was "trying", or even what gear he was in? Was he a competent driver, or bad? Did this competition last longer than 3 seconds? Look, people differ in driving skill, not to mention what gear they are in when you decide to race them. The ONLY fair comparison is 2 cars driven by comparable drivers (or better, the same driver one after the other) on open roads, without U-turns entering into it. That's what I described: the same person driving the 2 cars--me, one car, then the other, on the same road. P.C.

JM993

[QUOTE=m3333hp]My E30 M3 2.5 will walk away from a US E36 M3 (both in 5th) at 80 mph Why 80? I'm never going slower than that.

Of course, my 993 will pulverize them both.

Point is, none of these cars is all that fast in today's world. Pick the car that has the correct "feel." What's the correct feel? You'll know it when you experience it. The 911s have it, so does the Boxster, and the 993. The only BMW in the same ballpark is the E30 M3. The E36 M3, while decent, is pillowy soft and devoid of feel in comparison. It certainly does NOT have the feel.

Another disappointing aspect of the E36 M3 is the very engine some people tout. Torque is great, but without HP to back it up, you end up with a boring engine that runs out of breath exactly when it should be coming on cam. No reason to wind the engine out as all the power is in the basement. This approach is great for trucks, but it's not what you want in a sports car......

Joe

1995 Porsche 993 6sp
1988 BMW E30 M3 2.5 (240HP)

m3333hp

[QUOTE=jmarch]Hi Joe, Thanks for your interesting comments, and your M3 challenge, I guess we would have to call it. I hesitate to continue the conversation because it is about BMWs and this is a Porsche list, but since you brought it up and since you are far more familiar than me with this list, me being just a newbie, I’ll take your lead and continue the conversation even tho on BMWs.

I certainly agree with you that the E30 M3 is a fantastic car, what with having essentially 2/3rds of a (developed) M1 engine. In fact the factory race version of it is sometimes credited with being the most successful race car model of all time by the way it dominated the many races it ran in and won championships. Whether that’s true I don’t know, but it was a heck of a race car—AND road car-–and thankfully the road version allowed the race version to be homologated for racing in touring car races.

You didn’t mention whether your E30 M3 is stock or not, but since you call it a 2.5 it is probably a 1991 Sport Evolution. Of course we can only talk stock here since the sky is the limit on modifications, including stuffing big BMW 6s into E30 bodies, as has been done. These are very different beasts, so this conversation is about stock vehicles.

I was interested in your view that an E30 2.5 M3 would walk away from an E36 M3 from 80 mph. Not having tried this, I have only basic stats from road tests to go on, but since they are from reliable national magazines they should give us a reasonable picture of what the cars could do if run against each other. Just for comparison, the 1988 2.3 M3 results are included and come from Automobile Magazine (Dec. 1987). The others come from Road & Track (1991 & 1997 issues). Not all measures were taken for every car, but they give an idea. NA=not available.

0-90 mph 1/4 mi time 1/4 mi speed

1988 E30 M3 NA 15.7 94.0

1991 E30 M3
Sport Evol. 12.9 14.8 95.5

1997 E36 M3
4-door sedan 11.8 14.2 99.0

This shows that the E36 3.2 outperforms both E30s on every comparable measure, with the better aerodynamics of the E36 probably playing a part.
So, Joe, would a stock E30 M3 walk away from a stock 3.2 E36 M3 from 80 mph? Great as those early M3s are, I don’t think so.

When you say E36 M3s are pillowy soft and that they run out of breath with all the power in the basement I can tell that you have not driven one. Sorry, but when you say things that extreme its hard to take you seriously.

All the best,
Peter

JM993

Peter,

I've driven several E36 M3s. I hope I did not offend you as you own one, my disappointment shows through because I used to be a big BMW fan. For me, the US E36 was and is a big letdown. I understand these cars were built to a price, but as they are supposed to be the pinnacle of BMW's talents they shouldn't have spared as much expense as they did. Let's be honest - these cars are too heavy (approx 400+ pounds more than they're predecessor). This shows through in they're dynamics - they don't change direction like an E30. They're too soft controls - shifter, brakes (still cheap floating calipers), steering - are slanted toward the masses, not the enthusiast. The Euro E36 M3, while again too heavy, at least retained some of the good stuff - individual throttle bodies for each cylinder, for example.

I'll assume the numbers you've provided are correct. Three things. First, my car is EVOIII plus a little more. Second, if you've drive an E30 M3 2.3 or 2.5, you'll understand that these cars are not proficient at drag racing - getting off the line super quick is tough w/o hurting the car. I'll stand by my statement which I've confirmed through experience - my E30 M3 will walk away from a E36 M3 at speed. Why? It's a function of gearing and horsepower. At 80mph my car is in it's powerband. Sadly, the E36 (watered down for American stoplight to stoplight driving) is just signing off - it simply doesn't make a whole lot of sense to rev the car out.

Oh, and for fun I've dragged an 3.2 off the line - it was a draw to 60. However, all this misses the point. My point is none of these cars are that fast in today's environment. My 993 will kill both of them. A 997 or any given newer MB will kill my 993. A car should be chosen not for the numbers it generates, but the feeling it imparts to the driver. Some cars have the feel - most Porsches and the E30 M3. Most don't - E36 M3 included.

You should really drive an E30 M3.....

As always this is just my opinion,
Joe

1995 Porsche 993 6sp
1988 BMW E30 M3 2.5 (240HP)

Wayne Williams

Actually m3333hp,

I live in the UK and we get 204bhp as standard in the SC. The only "mod" this car has had is an SSI system, so probably looking at 220ish. (Recent rolling road test showed 205 at the wheels).

I also know that the E36 I apparently "drag raced" - (it was actually a sprint from one set of lights to another set of lights about 1/3 of mile apart) was a genuine M3 as I spoke to the guy at the next set of lights (also the car had that glorious "bag of bolts" engine note that is inherent to the M3!!!)

I love my SC and yes, there is probably plenty of Jap Crap that would pass me no problem, but, my 911 will certainly turn more heads and get more comments than an M3 or a Honda Civic.

Case Closed, can't be bothered anymore - My87Targa, leave 'em to it!!!

m3333hp

Joe,
I see that your E30 M3 2.5 isn't a "stock" E30 M3---the usual kind of 2.3 E30 M3. It was modified by the factory to Evo III specs, and then modified further, details unknown, by someone else. As I said, the sky is the limit on mods, and our conversation was supposed to be about stock vehicles. After all, we know that the right Honda Civic, suitably modified, could probably out accelerate all of the stock street M3s we could possibly discuss, provided it was in the right gear at the right rpm.

I did not make up the numbers I mentioned in my last post. They came from the US magazines I listed. You could look them up.

As for offending me.....Joe, I do not define myself by the cars I drive or own. There is more to me (and most other people, too) than that. As you have seen, I like real data--"the numbers"--so that conversations can have some basis. That makes them interesting and worthwhile. Without those, conversations can be mostly hot air, unfortunately.
Best,
Peter

fixnprsh

at 80 MPH any E30 M3 is turning about 4000rpm and its on the pipe all the way up to redline where an E36 M3, with its buckets of torque, is turning lower RPM and its out of its power band shortly after 4500RPM

Still the E36 is more driver friendly and has out of the hole power, where the E30 is meant to be strung out at high RPMs where it makes its power all day long

However a E36 M3 with a Vortech V2 or Garrett Turbo is Thors hammer and is absolutely brutal in power and delivery and will send a 996TT running away with its tail between its legs

I once did a 98 E36 M3 (Convertible.....eh) with mild cams, V2 supercharger, remus exhaust, Shrick intake manifold with after cooler,, lower gearing and limited slip and light weight flywheel (his bill was close to $30K after the Brembo kit) and this car was scarry fast, we had to weld up the subframe mounts on the body for the rear subframe, and the sway bar brackets as these have a habit of breaking especially when you power shift second gear. The customer never dynoed it (you bet your *** I would at that price), but Its sister car made 407 at the wheels on 93

What can I say, I love BMW's Just because I own a Porsche doesn't mean I have to like ONE car or be blinded into thinking MY car is the best, despite evidence there are better ones........aren't these the same kind of people who fall for that whole "Religion" thing? Next they will say an SC is faster than an EVO VIII MR edition.......................

Anyone read the Eurotuner or European Car that had the SUper tuner showdown with all the cars from Primedia's different mags like Turbo, Sport Compact, Eurotuner and the like? The Turner Motorsports BMW with a spec'd Factory sealed 2.5 liter kept up with all the over powered Supras, EVO's and 350Z's

Who's up for a WIllow springs "Kraut sliniging contest" BMW VS. Porsche? I'm sure I could get some heavy hitters from both camps to come out........................................

2002M3Drew

While power and stoplights and drag racing is fun to some, it simply isn't the context of ANY of these carrs we are discussing! These cars (E30 M3, E36 M3, 911SC, 911 Carrera 3.2, etc) are all about balance of performance and handling.

To that point, I still say that the ultimate answer as to which platforn handles better (and we are not talking about absolute measurable lateral grip, but handling) is dependent on the skillset of the driver answering the question. To me, a good handling car means that is has to be able to do what I want it to do on the back roads, oon the racetrack, and in autox. Front engined platforms have thhe inherent defect of having the motor above the wheels that do your steering and primary braking functions. As such, there are always times when you want to do more than what is available inn the car, and then you are forced to wait (off power) for grip to restore before getting back on it. With a 911, the rear engine platform enhances braking (no weight up front...when car pitches forward, weight distribution is equalized), enhaces acceration, particularly in the rain (weight over drive wheels), you can turn well under power, and you can very effectively rotate the car (advanced line correction tehnique). I campaigned an M3 in autox two seasons ago, and my 911 is a delight by comparison. I'll take a car that turns well over a high HP car any day. On the track, I can surprise many modern cars in the twisties.

Perhaps the best part of owning the old 911 (getting back to the original thread) is knowing that not everyone can drive one well. They are not easy to drive at speed. Whenever I let someone else drive it for a lap in autox, they are shocked at how differently it drives. An M3, by comparison, is delightfully benign. It is easy to jump in, feel at home, and flog it. While that's great, it's not much of a challenge, and you are not learning anything as a driver. If you can drive an older 911 well, you'll not only be fast, you'll be a fast driver.

fixnprsh

It takes MUCH skill to be able to drive a 911 fast and is much more of a DRIVER oriented car and thus more rewarding

not for the novice as like an M3 which is easyier for a novice to control, but can be used like a surgeon in the correct hands!

I have thought about buying a Skyline R32 for sometime now, THAT is a monster car to drive with tons of horsepower avalible with a turbo upgrade and 4 wheel steering too!

My87Targa

i know it was an M3 i talked to the guy on bimmerfourms.com

its all in how good you drive and how willing to break something you are, ive beaten cars a good bit faster then mine. when i raced the bmw it was a good race but i beat him, doesnt mean ill beat every m3 out there.

im glad you know what you could have had but you dont have that so its a non issue. as for your gti and how fast it is well i dunno much at all about them but i do know tthey can be made to go pretty quick.

as for me coming out to play on the track i would love to one day, my goal is not to go out and beat everyone and bash bmw mine is just to have fun with my car. im young i got plenty of time to buy better cars for riht now im content

Saakey

I have 20k to spend, i'd go porsche...if i only had say, 10-15k to spend, i'd do '95 M3.

Thats my 2 cent Good luck

SleepRM3

+1 on this post.

I own a '97 M3/4-door and use it as both a touring AND instructor track car.

The M3/4 has a real trunk WITH a full-size spare--which has come in handy when I've corded a tire at the track. I can carry tools, jack, jackstands, spare parts, luggage, helmet, etc with room to spare for my wife and her stuff. Try packing that stuff plus your wife in a 3.2-L Carrera LOL.

Driving dynamics and power are just about right except the E36 M3 is a bit portly at 3175 lbs (my last sports car was '93 Twin Turbo FD Rx7 weighing 2750 lbs with fuel).

In terms of outright pace, I've recently chased and forced a point-by from an A-student driver at Putnam Park Road Course http://www.putnampark.com/ His car is a new Porsche Cayman S on Hoosiers (my M3/4 has 8.5-wide x 17 rr all around with 235/40-17 Neovas, a summer performance street tire). Was there a driving skill gap between us--maybe? He drove quite well, but if we switched cars, I'm pretty sure I could leave him in my M3/4 driving his Cayman S LOL.

Here's the thing. The M3 is so forgiving and predictable, it's almost robotic to drive it fast lap after lap. The only concern you have tracking an M3 is brake pad fade and overheating tires (from tossing 3175 lbs around).

As for maintenance the M3's been quite durable and reliable. My track prep for last weekend's DE was putting 1 US Qt of oil in the motor. That's it. Between sessions, I check tire pressures, and tighten lug nuts. It's a worry-free car (especially compared with my old FD Rx7 which was FAST but Fragile).

Yet, I've driven my neighbor's 1980 911SC (graymarket car from Germany) at Putnam Park a few years ago, I was impressed with how much fun it was to drive at the limit. The car weighed nothing (2560 lbs?), and with so little hp, you really could not get into trouble. As the previous poster mentioned about performance-driving 911s, you can manage the rear end around the turns--and it's totally entertaining to rotate the back end of a 911 purposefully--at least with a stock suspensioned 911. I've also driven an F-Stock-prepped PCA 3.2-L Carrera club racing car, and the owner had it set up to understeer too much for my taste--so 911s are definitely tunable to suit the driver's skills and preference.

I've been considering a '99 996 for some time, but the thought of giving up my '97 M3/4-door to get the 996 is just not acceptable. Thus I'm looking at buying a mint '87 to '88 3.2-L Carrera for weekend use, and occasional DE (driving it in B student run group sessions)--while the M3/4 becomes a dedicated touring car (I have two other vehicle choices for the daily grind to work).

Here's a nice '87 I found for $26K within a reasonable distance from Indy http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail...eadExists=true

So my vote for this poll is to get the E36 M3 first, then save up for the 3.2-L Carrera.

einzel

Porsche 911 & M3 E30 Forever!! My 2 lovers head to head..