Chasmanporschefan

Here's the deal. You have $20k to spend on a car. The options are a BMW e36 M3 or a Porsche 911.
Obviously, with only $20k, your Porsche options are going to be limited to something around a 1990 or 91 C2 or C4.
Please vote for one and list any advantages associated with each selection. Here's our preliminary list of advantages.

BMW e36 M3 Advantages
-- less maintenance (b/c it's a newer car)
-- cheaper to mod
-- accommodates four people comfortably

911 Advantages
-- less depreciation
-- prestige factor of the P car
-- potential for all-wheel drive

fixnprsh

you can pick up and E36 M3 from anywhere between 10-15K and spend the remainder on a supercharger kit from VF Engineering bringing it up to a good 330-340hp giving it enough oomph to put a 993TT in an embarassing spot, plus its a far more reliable car while a porsche his much more finicy and will cost more to maintain,

does anyone even offer a 3.2 carrera, 964 supercharger kit anymore?

The 964 AWD wasn't a very good system and was heavy.

I have worked on, driven and blown/modded more E36 M3's than probably anyone on this site, and this round my nod goes to the BMW. for reliability/bang for the buck.

r911

An adv. (or maybe a dis-adv.) is the driving dynamics or a heavy rear on the 911. No BMW can do that.

You can mod. an earlier 911 too. But it will never carry 4 adults. The M3 will. And it has more dealers for when you break down on a road trip.

JackOlsen

What's the car going to be used for?

M491

Yeah, really depends on what you want to use the car for.

The E36 M3 is a good daily driver car. But I've always thought of it as an "M-lite" M car. It has a 240 hp "US only" engine, while the ROW got the "real" M engine. It has the same body as the regular E36, with only different bumpers and side valences (not that there is anything wrong with the E36 body - it's a beautiful coupe).

I've spent a lot of time in an E36 M3, it's a good car.

But it lacks the "specialness" of the earlier, and later M3s, IMO.

The E30 M3 is a supercool car, and a real "M." Just about every part on the E30 M is M specific (including the windshield, rear window, body flares, trunk lid, etc. etc. etc.) It had the wild body that was so "out there" for the conservative BMW of the 80s. It has a true, high revving, race-bred 4 cylinder. It was a true "homologation special," which always makes a car unique.

The current E46 M3, well, 333 hp is always special! With the more aggressive flares and bumpers on it, it is a beautiful, mean looking coupe.

Again, though, the E36 M is a great car. IMO, it is one of the most aesthetically well balanced and beautiful looking coupes of the last 25 years. For a daily driver, commuter, traffic, needs AC, needs to occasionally carry 4 people car, it is a good choice. Probably better than a $20K 80s 911 for that use for most people.

For a weekend fun car, occasional track car, etc., I'd take the 911.

Chasmanporschefan

Semi-daily driver: 7-10,000 miles/year + some autocross.

r911

one of each...

Mongo

buy a 911 SC for 10 grand and then:

$2,500 into Weber 40 IDF Carbs including optimized A/F tuning.

$500 Bilstein shocks

$400 Sway bars

$400 Autopower Roll Bar

$800 Sparco Evo's

$350 930S steering wheel

$2200 GHL headers and muffler

$200 dyno time

$400 for parts while I do valve adjustments on it


= approx. 200 RWHP 911 SC with enough money left over to still buy my date a lobster dinner...






......or a really expensive hot hooker.

BrianS

Have you driven either car? It's all in the driving dynamics of the two. They are very, very different.

The front engine, rear drive, 50:50 weighting of the M3 gives it that wonderfully balanced polar moment right under your seat, with one leg forward and the other back to toss it around with grace and predictable ease. Think (really powerful) figure skater. Complete control and no surprises.

The rear engine, rear drive of the 911 pushes you out of every corner and feels as though it just wants to push more and more and more! Just remember to set up the suspension with a tap on the brakes as you enter the corner, and DON'T LIFT THE THROTTLE! Think hockey player.

Okay, those are Canadian references ... let's see if I can put it into American context. M3 = Michael Jordan. 911 = Charles Barkley.

Which is going to be more fun for you? For what it's worth, I've driven all manner of configurations (front/rear, front/front, 4WD, mid/rear and now rear/rear), and I cannot imagine going back to anything else! I simply love the feeling of the acceleration and handling of the 911. Drive one and decide.
__________________
'81 911SC

JackOlsen

There's an SC on the Pelican classified board with a 3.6 in it. Its asking price is 18.5K.

An M3 is a daily driver. A 911 can be one, but it's simultaneously much more trouble (no back seats, lots of quirks) and much more cool. An M3 is a good-looking car, but even in coupe form it looks like an ordinary, nice, utilitarian sedan. A (pre-996) 911 looks like something else -- a performance car -- or even to the untrained eye: something much cooler than a car.

The 911 is more fun on a track, in my (admittedly-biased) opinion. The M3 is much more forgiving, and will make you think you're a better driver right out of the gate. I don't know how each performs in autocrossing, since I've never done that. My guess would be that each would be pretty good.

Both are really exceptionally good cars. If I were M3 shopping, I'd probably look at either a quirky, retro E30 or the more blunt and impressive E46. The E36 strikes me as just a little bit 'neither-nor,' compared to what came before and after it.

All of this is personal opinion, of course, but in my mind an M3 is a (very capable) conformist's car, and a 911 is a (very capable) non-conformist's car.

stimpee

Hee hee,

Obviously I am in the wrong forum here, but I will post my opinion!!

I own a 1997 M3 4 door sedan. My dear brother, who pointed me to this thread, owns a 1986 911 Targa. I have driven both cars (perhaps that is obvious), and the two cars, in some sense defy comparison. They are completely different beasts IMHO. The question people asked of "how are you going to use the car" is the primary question, and the other is what type of FEEL do you want out of the car. The M3 is unquestionably the better "all around" car. In my case, I have a bunch of kids, and the car has to do daily driving duty for me. The balance, brakes, and handling of the car, bone stock, are brillant. Perhaps not as involving as the Porsche, but brilliant anyway. The engine is NOT the euro engine, but if you think the engine is not up to the task, you have probably not spent much time in an E36 M3. That being said, Mo Powa is always helpful, so I developed a twin-screw supercharger kit for my car. Now, it has the power to go with the rest of the package! A few minor upgrades to brakes and suspension, and a few tweaks, and I will end up with a car that has 350+ rwhp, brakes and suspension to match, can outperform the vast majority of "sports cars" out there, but still has 4 doors, seats 5, and my wife can drive it to the grocery store without attracting too much attention (unless she wants to)! All for less than $25k including the modifications.

This question is a lot like the "turbo vs supercharger" wars. Depends on what you want it to FEEL like!

When I drove my brother's 911, I was amazed at how "involving" the car is. It had an edgy "feel" to it, that, IMHO again would make a WONDERFUL weekend, auto-x, and track car. However, at least with the 1986 vintage, was probably not a car I would want to drive on a daily basis as a commuter. Perhaps the newer models are a bit different, but that is my assessment.

Flame away!!!

Chasmanporschefan

Interesting that those of you who took the time to post remarks were generally in favor of the M3 for the type of driving we are going to do, yet the poll is coming out heavily in favor of the 911 (of course, what would one expect on a Porsche forum?).

A big thanks to those who have posted (so far). I found all of the comments very insightful.

JBO

Now that it's 100 degrees, no contest, the M3. A/C will freeze you out on the M3, it shifts flawlessly, is comfortable and is rock solid reliable. The 911 is more engaging and more fun to drive with its raw feel, but not as a daily driver/commuter. If I could only have one it would definitely be the M3. I have a BMW as my daily driver and 911 SC as fun weekend/afterwork car. There are tons of good mechanics that work on BMW's, but very few good one's that work on 911's. My BMW mechanic, who works on all types of imports and has rebuilt BMW engines, said air cooled 911's are too different from "regular" cars and I needed to find someone who specialized in them. He said they are a pain in the --- and I should have bought an NSX

2002M3Drew

I have a 1983 911SC and a 2002 BMW M3, and love them both for their own reasons.

The BMW is my Grand Tourer. It is rediculously fast, and easy to drive fast. You can cover a lot of miles in one of these with minimal fatique, and a good amount of driver involvement. The motor sounds great from the cabin at full song! It is very economical, and the packaging is downright practical for a car that can embarrass many high end sports cars. On the track, I'm right there with any 996 (save TT or GT3, of course).

The E36 is also a great car, and a bit more visceral than my E46, though by comparison its ultimate limits in just about any measurable category are far below the E46. The styling, as many have pointed out, was bland in comparision wityh the E30 M3 and the E46 M3s, which clearly distinguished themselves from their standard bretheren. It has great balance, a willing motor, good brakes, and nice, sharp handling. As time goes on, though, I think the E36 as a complete car becomes more and more "ordinary." It will be mid pack in a track day or an autox, and they are not the attention getters they once were on the roads. To drive them in 2005 is still nice, but they are far from the special driving experience that they once were. Don't think parts are cheap for these cars, either...BMW M parts, US Market or not, can be punitive.

Now, that brings me to the 911. The $20K budget in question here is way more than enough of a car my vintage, and probably enough for a decent 964 series 911. For that same money, you will have a car that everybody wants a ride in, that gas station attendants ignore other customers to look at and talk about, and that provides perhaps the best "learning" platform for pure driving available for the money. I took a 3 day racing school in Formula cars this year, and probably 90% of what I learned translated perectly to the seat of my 911. These cars handle like race cars. Despite the overblown claims of trailing throttle oversteer, these cars are a joy to drive because you can "place" them on the track. You can intentionally early apex and steer that rear right through the corner. (I was amused a recent DE watching a Z06 behind me in my mirror trying to follow my line through a hairpin and ending up all out of shap on exit!) This is something that you cannot do with a E36 or E46 M3...maybe an E30 set correctly...

That all said, for a daily driver with that two car choice and $20K, I'd get the best E36 I could afford. Modern AC, creature comforts, and a usable trunk make that easy. For a fun car that takes you completely out of the oridinary every time you slip behind the wheel, it's gotta be the Porsche.

r911

"it looks like an ordinary, nice, utilitarian sedan."

- very true. now -- do you want that look? the M3 is a much better "Q-ship" (esp. if de-badged) or do you want a more outward "cool" sports car look?

Everything here makes great fodder for your subjective, personal consideration -- but that is the only way to do it.

You could get a 911 when young - keep it until you have kids and they are too big for the back seat - sell for an M3 -- sell the M3 for a 911 after the kids are fledged (assuming you can afford college tuition + fun car at the same time). This would be my "life-cycle" analysis.) After that, you could hot rod your electric wheelchair at the old folks home -- use it to scare the nurses...