rickc

I am thinking about doing a 3.6 transplant into my SC, and putting the 3.0 away in a safe place if I ever decide to sell the car. have added up the cost of modifying my 3.0 and it seems to make better sense to make the swap. What are the pitfalls? Can I use my 915 trans. What is the process? I am sure that the exhaust will need to be modified. My other option was a turbo 3.3 motor. Advice?
Thank you

Bill Gregory

Rick,

There are several on the lists who have done this. Steve Timmons in DE has a website with information and offers parts and service to complete the swap http://www.instant-g.com/Products/36...on/index.html. Patrick Motorsports carries many of the parts, with a website at http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/911.html. Thom Fitzpatrick just put a 3.6L engine in, and has pictures and other links at http://vintagebus.com/3.6/ . Also, be careful where you source your 3.6L from. Thom just got burned on a miserable rebuild.

While it's a noble thought that you want to put the 3.0L away in case you ever want to restore the SC to it's current state, I'd recommend you sell the engine and apply the cash to your 3.6L project. You'll need to upgrade at least the rear torsion bars for the heavier engine, you'll want to upgrade your brakes to either Carrera or Turbo, or larger if you have 17" wheels, you may choose to upgrade to adjustable sway bars, etc. Point is, to have a successful 3.6L conversion, you'll also be modifying other parts, which make a return to stock SC less and less likely.

And on the Turbo 3.3 thought, if that's what you want, sell the SC and buy the appropriate year Turbo. There's are many more differences than just the engine in the Turbo models.

JackOlsen

I agree with everything Bill said, although I don't think it's strictly necessary to upgrade the brakes, unless you are regularly tracking the car.

In my opinion, Steve Timmins is the guy who has made this swap practical and possible. Read his FAQ to get a good picture of what's involved.

Steve Timmins' Page.

Steve Timmins' FAQ.

The 3.3 turbo would require a different transaxle, realistically, as well as a number of other mods. Not worth it, in my opinion.

I did a 3.6 on my 73, and have been very happy with the results. I've also got a good source for fairly low-mileage engines. If you've got questions, feel free to send me an email at:

jackolsen@mediaone.net

Dean

I have to disagree. I put a 3.0l turbo in my SC and I couldn't be happier. It is a fair amount of work but wll worth it.
Dean

rickc

Thanks for the info on the 3.6 transplant. While the 3.6 has a much different torque curve that my 3.0, I am not wholly bowled over by the dyno figures for the 3.6 vs. the cost of the transplant.Would I not in the end be better off to just build a stroker motor with 3.2 parts and custom pistons and avoid the whole retrofit/exhaust issue? Could I not achieve 300hp numbers with good heads and higher comp pistons out of my SC?
Maybe I am underestimating the net effect of the 3.6 in an SC chassis.

pbs911

I have been researching this topic extensively. The difference in a 3.6 transplant is facotry reliability. The more you hotrod a motor the more maintainance is required. I guess the question for you is how much maintainance do you want to put in in the future. The 3.6 will require nothing more than the facotry recommended maintainance schedule. More if you want. A hot rod motor will require more. The cost is greater for the initial hot rod motor simply because you will be buying the motor ala cart. I will be going for the 3.6 993 transplant. Basically because my car is a daily driver and reliability is more important that a quicker reving, more torque stroker 3.0 or 3.2. You have to decide what you want.

kurtstarnes

I am in a similar situation to you regarding a 3.6 or a stroked 3.0 -> 3.2 to put in my narrow bodied '72.

I have about completed my research and am probably 99% sure I will build a short-stroke 3.2 from a 3.0 crank case. Initially I was leaning towards the 3.6 - and the overwhelming majority of those who responded to my intial query on the Pelican board said "3.6!"

I think you can get 275 to 300hp w/ the Andial/Mahle 3.2 p/c set (you can get these in either 9.8:1 or 10.5:1 compression), run twin-plug heads, use a cam grind like a GE-60, port and polish the heads (also need to machine the heads for the big bore pistons) and use a 40mm Weber or PMO set-up. A single aux. oil cooler in the fender will probably be sufficient as well.

With my motor for the street I will probably run two HPV-1s in a set-up like I described above and add some ARP rod bolts and the Andial sport valve springs for excursions above 7200 rpms.

You could get over 300hp with a wilder cam, 46mm carbs and opening up the heads for more flow, but this is probably a motor much better suited for the track.

I looked at the 3.6 transplant from almost every angle and it is true that you would end-up with a mostly non-modified motor built in Stuttgart with modern fuel injection. You could do the 3.6 transplant for less money (engine only) than a built 3.2 from a 3.0.

I want to build a revvy motor with the character (and sound!) of the early smaller displacement motors . . . and with the look of the early motors. While a 3.2 will naturally add more weight to the rear, a 3.6 will add even more.

The stroked 3.2 will not produce the torque of the 3.6 which means that your 915 may have a bit of a longer life.

I don't think you can go terribly wrong with either of the choices; it comes down to character of the motor and money!

Good luck to you!

EDIT: I missed a point of the original post regarding a 'stroker'! By "stroker" I assume you mean using original size p/c's and using a 3.2 crank? I'm going to use the 3.0 crank and get added displacement via p/c's. You will get more torque via your method! Sorry for my oversight!

kurtstarnes

Question for the 3.6 guys:

Is the 3.6 transplant "potentially" more expensive down the road a few years when a rebuild may be required or repair of a motor that is inherently more complex than an earlier motor?

How long have some of you 3.6 guys been running your motors and what kind of maintenance costs have you experienced?

Seems like the 3.0 motors have been hot rodded for many years and that there are some proven formulas that are tried and true - assuming that the motor is built properly.

I ask these questions because perhaps I am not 99% sure of building a 3.0 -> 3.2 hot rod.

Hopefully the answers to these questions will help Rick as well!

Bill Verburg

I have been running my 3.6 transplant since the summer of '95. Zero problems, just normal maintainance. For a street car the torque characteristics of a stock 3.6 are fabulous. Yes, you can get comparable hp from a built 3.2/3.4, but not the torque.

Additionally, there is no reason that the 3.6 cannot be built up as is often proposed for the 3.2. A good big motor will beat a good little motor any day. Of course if racing is in the cards you are then limited by class rules. But for a non racer that just wants a hot rod, the 3.6 is the way to go. The weight penalty over a 3.2 is minimal, it can be modded to your hearts desire, the torque and reliability are huge pluses, down the road a rebuild on a 3.6 is more expensive than for a 3.2 but not a lot more(ie the cost of 3.8 pistons for a 3.6 is not much more than the cost of 3.4 pistons for a 3.2) .

The 915 aluminum case is better than a mg. case, 8/31 final drive is stronger than 7/31, G50 is best but not necessary.

Use Dr. Timmins kit(see Jacks links), transplant a 964/993 engine compartment electric panel/console to ease the electric part of the job, use B&B 1.75" header and Fabiani muffer or make you own muffler from A Flowmaster and some 2.5" tubing( Do it youself mufflers ), use a B&B front spoiler mounted cooler for best oil cooling, even better is a spoiler mounted cooler(for unrestricted air flow) which is a bit smaller(easier mounting) than the B&B with a large fender mount cooler w/fan(for heavy traffic on really hot days)

For street use std brakes are ok but do upgrade to 930 or better spec for track use.

For ultimate hp and expense a turbo is the way to go. No normally aspirated engine will ever approach the torque/hp potential of a turbo.

Thom Fitzpatrick

The 3.6L conversion is way more 'plug-and-play' than the grab-bag upgrades. Sure, you can mix and match components for various other vendors, and come up with some amalgamation that works, but I see potential issues in getting the [i]right[i] pieces to make an engine that works for your application. If you're willing to be someone's guinea pig, then by all means go for the wild cam stroker motor. In the VW world, there's the same debate: do you take a 1600 case and use Gene Berg this and Scat that, or go with a Type IV motor? Imagine the two different engines' capabilties on a graph. Make HP the Y axis and $ the X axis. T he 3.0/3.2 setup starts are some arbitrary point and goes to n; the 3.6L starts farther down the money axis midway on the 3.2 line, but ends higher on the Y axis.

As to parts prices, remember that there's an inverted bell curve; the newest and oldest parts are always the most expensive (ie pre-A and 996 parts). The 3.0 stuff is at the bottom of the bell right now, and the 3.2 is close to it, but as time goes on, they will begin to shift back upwards, and the 3.6L stuff moves down into the trough. Hopefully that will be the point in time that you need the rebuild

The exhaust solution isn't really a big deal anymore - pioneers such as Jack and Bill had a rougher time of it, but now that this conversion is gaining popularity, simpler solutions are available. For example, B&B can make you the exhaust you need with about a 2-week lead time, and can even provide cats if you need them.

The actual conversion labor on mine was $2000. It was the first 3.6L conversion that this shop had done, so they were $low and methodical. Steve can do them in about 4 hours or so now, since he's a pro.

I paid on the high side ($7500) for my engine, because it was "rebuilt". Expect to pay $5k to $7k for the engine.

I just had my 3.6L rebuilt:

<A HREF="http://www.vintagebus.com/gallery/image/9350.JPG" TARGET=_blank>

</A>

I don't think this is that much - if any - more than a 3.2 rebuild would have cost. My rebuild didn't need head work or main bearings. I had an estimate of $5k to do my 2.7L engine that had been overreved.

Here's an overview
of the conversion process.

rickc

wow.some pretty strong endorsements from both sides of the fence.If my 3.0 did not have CIS, I think that my decision would be easier. I could run a wilder cam with a 98mm piston set, and that would not dig too deep into my pockets. I have to deal with the emissions police,so a later model hooked up to a cat setup might pass scrutiny. I would ultimately like my cars power to match its attitude, especially considering that my 2001 VW GTI pumps out close to 200 hp with a chip and cone filter.That my objective, not daily reliability.

Erick

Having just completed a "short stroke" 3.2 I am pleased with the results. Will have the car on a dyno soon to see what the hp is.

Not cheap.......about 20K in parts not including labor other than machine work. The engine has "special" camshafts, extrude honed and match ported cylinder heads and intake (PMO tall) manifolds, re-jetted 40IDA Webers, HPX dual plug crankfire ignition, bored/plated 98mm 3.2 cylinders, 98mm 10:5-1 pistons, SSI"s with 2 in/out B&B......etc......

Speed is expensive.......

Regards,
Erick