Gray Market cars
03-05-2005, 11:00 AM
#2
I have a 1977 911 that I purchased in Munich in 1986. It is a great car and runs great (yes, it's a 2.7 engine!). The RoW cars do not have all the creature comforts that US spec cars have. For example, my car never had a/c, it has cloth seats, no center console, no thermal reactors (thank goodness), no fog lights, etc.
Like buying any used Porsche, you need to do a PPI and your do your homework. Depending on the age of the car, make sure you go aver the body and floor pan to look for hidden rust. The grey market cars need to have the government paperwork that cleared them for use in the US.
Two key pieces of paperwork for the older cars are the EPA Release Letter (car is exempt from emissions standards-except for CA) and the DOT Release that approves the car for use in the US. When my car was imported, I had to have it "federalized" by a shop specializing in these types of conversions. I also have the US Customs forms that show I paid all applicable US customs duties. If the car you are looking at does not have this key government paperwork, I would walk away.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Bruce
'84 Carrera
'77 911 (RoW spec)
Like buying any used Porsche, you need to do a PPI and your do your homework. Depending on the age of the car, make sure you go aver the body and floor pan to look for hidden rust. The grey market cars need to have the government paperwork that cleared them for use in the US.
Two key pieces of paperwork for the older cars are the EPA Release Letter (car is exempt from emissions standards-except for CA) and the DOT Release that approves the car for use in the US. When my car was imported, I had to have it "federalized" by a shop specializing in these types of conversions. I also have the US Customs forms that show I paid all applicable US customs duties. If the car you are looking at does not have this key government paperwork, I would walk away.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Bruce
'84 Carrera
'77 911 (RoW spec)
03-05-2005, 12:38 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
ramp: Bruce really hit the key points! Excellent comments. The car must have all of its EPA and DOT certification documents, which covers everything from charcoal cannisters to door beams to safety glass in the windshield. If you're in CA don't consider the car unless the owner is willing to have a PPI done AND supply you with a change of ownership smog certificate. Hopefully you have access to a really good technician who can talk to you regarding catalytic converters, smog pumps, ECUs, etc.
Pete
Pete
03-06-2005, 12:39 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
keep in mind ....the Euro cars are superior - if they haven't been "butchered" while being federalized. Make sure all the paperwork is in order!
A thorough PPI is worth it's weight in gold.
A thorough PPI is worth it's weight in gold.
03-06-2005, 02:28 AM
#5
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In theory a Euro car may have some aspects superior to US cars - namely some addtl hp in some years.
They also generally tend to be a bit lighter because of the US mandated equipment, and because the Euro cars generally are not as optioned out as US cars.
But in reality, I think Euro cars are a bit of a minefield. Yeah, one that was shipped over brand new, zero miles, federalized properly, US speedo put in when it was new, and a clean history in the US is one thing.
But that's not usually the case.
Usually the car has several years of high speed, salted roads, Euro use.
Usually the speedo has been swapped out, thus "erasing" all of the European miles put on it.
Many times the federalization wasn't done properly.
Many times insurance is an issue.
All of the time resale is an issue - Euro cars sell in the US for less than US versions. Just the way the market works.
Not so sure on the 911, but on a lot of other German cars (like BMW) parts can be a little bit of a problem. Diagnosing electrical and other problems can also be a little challenging because the specs may be slightly different than US cars.
Me, personally, I only buy cars with clean ownership and service histories - no stories. I also don't like any additional hassles on 25+ year old Porsches, during ownership and during resale, so I personally stay clear of Euro. The upsides of a Euro model just aren't enough to me to outweigh the downsides and potential downsides. For standard production 911s, there are plenty of good used US models to choose from.
They also generally tend to be a bit lighter because of the US mandated equipment, and because the Euro cars generally are not as optioned out as US cars.
But in reality, I think Euro cars are a bit of a minefield. Yeah, one that was shipped over brand new, zero miles, federalized properly, US speedo put in when it was new, and a clean history in the US is one thing.
But that's not usually the case.
Usually the car has several years of high speed, salted roads, Euro use.
Usually the speedo has been swapped out, thus "erasing" all of the European miles put on it.
Many times the federalization wasn't done properly.
Many times insurance is an issue.
All of the time resale is an issue - Euro cars sell in the US for less than US versions. Just the way the market works.
Not so sure on the 911, but on a lot of other German cars (like BMW) parts can be a little bit of a problem. Diagnosing electrical and other problems can also be a little challenging because the specs may be slightly different than US cars.
Me, personally, I only buy cars with clean ownership and service histories - no stories. I also don't like any additional hassles on 25+ year old Porsches, during ownership and during resale, so I personally stay clear of Euro. The upsides of a Euro model just aren't enough to me to outweigh the downsides and potential downsides. For standard production 911s, there are plenty of good used US models to choose from.
03-06-2005, 12:37 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
The Euro cars are only more powerful in Europe. The moment they come to the US and are federalized they get saddled with a catalytic converter and other HP-robbing mods required by the DOT and EPA. The result is a car that is heavier and no more powerful than a US version, and you're really rolling the dice as to whether it was done well or not. There's a very good reason why Euro cars are cheaper - they are worth less than US cars. Get a US car.
Trending Topics
03-06-2005, 07:10 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Right and wrong!
In the early 80's I brought in about 60-70 "grey" cars.
These were mostly BMW e21 323i ( these were the baby 6 cylinder engined cars that BMW NA did not import) All the cars were purchased by me personally mostly from private owners.
All were properly "federalized" but each was exempted from EPA. Most were bought for BMW club members. Others were bought by every person I knew. (slightly off key)
Of the 5 911's I brought over, One Kremer Carrera Targa 1977 (German hot rod 3.3 "experimental" engine) I owned this car for only a year...clutch was a b***h. Then I bought a 79 SC Red coupe from a fanatical doctor. I owned this car for 8 years.
My point is, once the cars were here in the US I never had a problem registering or inspecting them. They ALWAYS passed NYS inspection for emissions, (NO CAT) I moved to FL with the red SC and as long as I had the NYS title all that was required was a VIN check.
Since all these cars were high performance (kinda') they were probably driven very fast and hard in Germany and NONE that I heard about years later had problems related to the service they received in Germany.
As long as you can check out the car and it passes I personally have no problem with the PPI etc...
The problems with GREY market cars was that too many idiots saw a fast buck
and bought any junk they could find....so just look the car over REALLY WELL.
In the early 80's I brought in about 60-70 "grey" cars.
These were mostly BMW e21 323i ( these were the baby 6 cylinder engined cars that BMW NA did not import) All the cars were purchased by me personally mostly from private owners.
All were properly "federalized" but each was exempted from EPA. Most were bought for BMW club members. Others were bought by every person I knew. (slightly off key)
Of the 5 911's I brought over, One Kremer Carrera Targa 1977 (German hot rod 3.3 "experimental" engine) I owned this car for only a year...clutch was a b***h. Then I bought a 79 SC Red coupe from a fanatical doctor. I owned this car for 8 years.
My point is, once the cars were here in the US I never had a problem registering or inspecting them. They ALWAYS passed NYS inspection for emissions, (NO CAT) I moved to FL with the red SC and as long as I had the NYS title all that was required was a VIN check.
Since all these cars were high performance (kinda') they were probably driven very fast and hard in Germany and NONE that I heard about years later had problems related to the service they received in Germany.
As long as you can check out the car and it passes I personally have no problem with the PPI etc...
The problems with GREY market cars was that too many idiots saw a fast buck
and bought any junk they could find....so just look the car over REALLY WELL.
Last edited by dak911; 03-06-2005 at 07:22 PM. Reason: hit wrong key
03-07-2005, 12:00 AM
#10
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So somehow the Euro cars gained cylinder compression from lack of emission controls? Sorry, that doesn't wash. What about the standard Euro trans coolers? Was that also a myth?
Some of these cars are now 25-30 years old. Many of the butchered rusted heaps are long gone. If the car has survived this long, give it a fighting chance to survive another 30 years.
Yes, there are differences in the cars. Just get an thorough PPI regardless of the cars heritage.
Amazing what is being passed around as fact.
Some of these cars are now 25-30 years old. Many of the butchered rusted heaps are long gone. If the car has survived this long, give it a fighting chance to survive another 30 years.
Yes, there are differences in the cars. Just get an thorough PPI regardless of the cars heritage.
Amazing what is being passed around as fact.
03-07-2005, 12:43 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by TerryH
So somehow the Euro cars gained cylinder compression from lack of emission controls? Sorry, that doesn't wash. What about the standard Euro trans coolers? Was that also a myth?
Some of these cars are now 25-30 years old. Many of the butchered rusted heaps are long gone. If the car has survived this long, give it a fighting chance to survive another 30 years.
Yes, there are differences in the cars. Just get an thorough PPI regardless of the cars heritage.
Amazing what is being passed around as fact.
Some of these cars are now 25-30 years old. Many of the butchered rusted heaps are long gone. If the car has survived this long, give it a fighting chance to survive another 30 years.
Yes, there are differences in the cars. Just get an thorough PPI regardless of the cars heritage.
Amazing what is being passed around as fact.
