Anyone have a 3.2 to 3.4 Conversion?
11-03-2004, 11:50 PM
#2
RL Technical Advisor
Hi:
Having built quite a number of these over the past 15 years, I'd offer some suggestions, if I might.
1) Use 964 cams
2) Twin-ignition is a MUST
3) Extrude hone the intake manifolds.
4) Leave the heads along,...porting/polishing is not needed as stock Carrera heads support up to 340 HP; save your money for something else unless this is a race car.
5) A good exhaust system is very important. Lots of options here.
6) A custom chip is necessary for this combo. Failure to do so will result in ruined pistons.
These motors, along with close-ratio gears, run VERY hard,...........
Having built quite a number of these over the past 15 years, I'd offer some suggestions, if I might.
1) Use 964 cams
2) Twin-ignition is a MUST
3) Extrude hone the intake manifolds.
4) Leave the heads along,...porting/polishing is not needed as stock Carrera heads support up to 340 HP; save your money for something else unless this is a race car.
5) A good exhaust system is very important. Lots of options here.
6) A custom chip is necessary for this combo. Failure to do so will result in ruined pistons.
These motors, along with close-ratio gears, run VERY hard,...........
11-04-2004, 09:35 AM
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Thanks Steve!
Two things. I was leaning a little more towards either Webcams super-sport grind (more lift/ a little more duration) or Dr cams 3.8 super-cup grind for this set-up. I really want strong power from 2200-6800 RPM. I plan to do mass air conversion as well.
As far as the trans, does the short gear set-up start off with a higher 1st-4th set and the same final or is it the other way-round? What is the approx cost?
Two things. I was leaning a little more towards either Webcams super-sport grind (more lift/ a little more duration) or Dr cams 3.8 super-cup grind for this set-up. I really want strong power from 2200-6800 RPM. I plan to do mass air conversion as well.
As far as the trans, does the short gear set-up start off with a higher 1st-4th set and the same final or is it the other way-round? What is the approx cost?
11-04-2004, 12:02 PM
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On the PP site a guy has done this and is using webcam 20/21 grind and SSI exhaust with all other components stock. He claimed 231HP /204TQ at the wheels after 5K mile break-in.
I think he still has some HP left. 1st would be the exhaust is too small. That's all I've found so far.
I think he still has some HP left. 1st would be the exhaust is too small. That's all I've found so far.
11-04-2004, 04:47 PM
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There are many options avaliable.
3.2 to 3.5 (using Mahle 100mm pistons and cyl)
3.2 to 3.7 (using 104mm JE forged pistons and Andial cylinder)
As Steve said Twin Plug is very imp as you increase the bore the design of the combustion chamber will not yield good result with single plug.
The twin plugging is a real pain. You could go with a very expensive and hard to find RSR distributor, or a 964 or I think Andial has one they designed.
Then since you are in there you could decide to upgrade the whole injection system to a Motec sequential...
Costs really start to add up and I am not an expert. At these levels it might become feasable to sell your 3.2 and buy a 993 Varioram.
I am in the same situation.
I'd love for people with more experience/knowledge to chime in.
3.2 to 3.5 (using Mahle 100mm pistons and cyl)
3.2 to 3.7 (using 104mm JE forged pistons and Andial cylinder)
As Steve said Twin Plug is very imp as you increase the bore the design of the combustion chamber will not yield good result with single plug.
The twin plugging is a real pain. You could go with a very expensive and hard to find RSR distributor, or a 964 or I think Andial has one they designed.
Then since you are in there you could decide to upgrade the whole injection system to a Motec sequential...
Costs really start to add up and I am not an expert. At these levels it might become feasable to sell your 3.2 and buy a 993 Varioram.
I am in the same situation.
I'd love for people with more experience/knowledge to chime in.
11-04-2004, 05:10 PM
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To me 3.2 to 3.4 seems a good result for cost upgrade. Any thing larger either in bore or stroke and you start spending big $$ for incremental gains. After this point (IMHO) you start re-inventing the wheel.
I'm an experienced performance engine builder with other makes and (don't laugh!) I also build and drag race Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Believe it or not the earlier Porsche engines seem to share a LOT in common with the later HD engines as far as combustion chamber, piston shape and
valve angle.
With that in mind, I will build it using the good info from this forum. Speaking of HD, they hired porshces engineers to design the piston/ combustion chambers on the Evolution engine and they
were the exclusive engineers on developing the V-Rod engine!!
I'm an experienced performance engine builder with other makes and (don't laugh!) I also build and drag race Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Believe it or not the earlier Porsche engines seem to share a LOT in common with the later HD engines as far as combustion chamber, piston shape and
valve angle.
With that in mind, I will build it using the good info from this forum. Speaking of HD, they hired porshces engineers to design the piston/ combustion chambers on the Evolution engine and they
were the exclusive engineers on developing the V-Rod engine!!
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11-04-2004, 09:14 PM
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If you are going lay out that kind of cash, I would suggest buying a 96-98 993. Soooo many things were improved from the 911 to 933. At least do yourself a favor and drive one if you have not every done so.
I love my 911 for everything that it is and that it is not. If those are your reasons for doing the upgrade, to what I assume is a 911, then go for it and enjoy the extra power. The 911 is a true raw sports car.
I love my 911 for everything that it is and that it is not. If those are your reasons for doing the upgrade, to what I assume is a 911, then go for it and enjoy the extra power. The 911 is a true raw sports car.
11-04-2004, 10:36 PM
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There are a few reasons; the first being keeping the basic car OE looking. This is a really, really nice original gaurds red on black whale tail Targe that has two previous owners and was garaged in Texas. I'm betting that these (84-89) cars will hold and increase in value as time passes. I want to keep the car with the same combo that it came with only 'enhanced' features.
The second reason is I have a (limited) budget and am saving $$ since this is my trade. If I had to pay someone to do most or all of it then iI would really consider a later car and/or larger engine.
The dealership I work for has a lot of different types of highline cars and the inventory is constantly changing. I get to drive and work on Porsches, Ferrari's, Lambo's, Jags, Beemers, Lotus, RR. Turbo Bently's and rare American muscle cars. My preference if for the older Beemers and recently my first 911. There is just something classic, raw and exhilerating about the earlier stuff. At the same time when I step on it I want it to be as fast as it feels!
The second reason is I have a (limited) budget and am saving $$ since this is my trade. If I had to pay someone to do most or all of it then iI would really consider a later car and/or larger engine.
The dealership I work for has a lot of different types of highline cars and the inventory is constantly changing. I get to drive and work on Porsches, Ferrari's, Lambo's, Jags, Beemers, Lotus, RR. Turbo Bently's and rare American muscle cars. My preference if for the older Beemers and recently my first 911. There is just something classic, raw and exhilerating about the earlier stuff. At the same time when I step on it I want it to be as fast as it feels!
11-04-2004, 10:38 PM
#10
RL Technical Advisor
Hi:
Just a few notes;
1) One can use many cams but if you want a nice wide power band (2200-6800), I'd stick to the 964 cams. Adding duration will affect the torque below 4000 RPM. Be sure and replace the not-very-good stock valve springs & retainers for insurance.
2) You will get many opinions on this so take mine with a grain of salt; I'll not use a JE piston in any street engine if I can help it. They are fine racing pistons but do NOT last any where near as long as the Mahles. You get what you pay for. Further, I'd never use a 104mm bore size due to poor ring sealing when hot. Those are simply too thin to be stable.
3) The 3.2 Carrera motors are the easiest and least expensive to do a twin-plug conversion. These Motronic engines need a 3.6 distributor, a Motronic splitter, a twin-plug harness, and the heads/lower valve covers must be machined of course. Its a MUST for any big-bore (98mm) or larger engine.
Lastly, there is a point of diminishing returns on these 3.4's. At a point, one is better off doing a 3.6 conversion as that combo (with gears) will just drive away from a 964-993-996.
My advice is to sit down and decide what level of performance you want, establish a realistic budget to accomplish that and then make decisions about how to proceed.
Just a few notes;
1) One can use many cams but if you want a nice wide power band (2200-6800), I'd stick to the 964 cams. Adding duration will affect the torque below 4000 RPM. Be sure and replace the not-very-good stock valve springs & retainers for insurance.
2) You will get many opinions on this so take mine with a grain of salt; I'll not use a JE piston in any street engine if I can help it. They are fine racing pistons but do NOT last any where near as long as the Mahles. You get what you pay for. Further, I'd never use a 104mm bore size due to poor ring sealing when hot. Those are simply too thin to be stable.
3) The 3.2 Carrera motors are the easiest and least expensive to do a twin-plug conversion. These Motronic engines need a 3.6 distributor, a Motronic splitter, a twin-plug harness, and the heads/lower valve covers must be machined of course. Its a MUST for any big-bore (98mm) or larger engine.
Lastly, there is a point of diminishing returns on these 3.4's. At a point, one is better off doing a 3.6 conversion as that combo (with gears) will just drive away from a 964-993-996.
My advice is to sit down and decide what level of performance you want, establish a realistic budget to accomplish that and then make decisions about how to proceed.
11-05-2004, 09:17 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Matteo, there are some other options you might not have been aware of that I thought would be worth mentioning.
100 mm machine in (105 case register) (gives you a 3487cc from the stock 3.2)
102mm machine in (107 case register) (gives you a 3628cc from the stock 3.2)
Both are of billet construction and are available with pistons (JE's provided by EBS racing) for either a 3.0 or 3.2, and are manufactured by LN Engineering. They can be purchased, with the JEs, from EBS. Pelican is also a distributor, but they don't show them on their web site.
Steve- there have been some good discussions lately with regards to JEs over on the Pelican board, and as best we can tell, we seem to be able to attribute the increased wear of the JEs in a mahle cylinder due to the material differences in both piston and cylinder (mainly expansion rates) and p/c clearance. Your input would be greatly appreciated.
As a side note, JEs have gotten alot better as of late, and I personally have not had a single failure in the ~150 sets used in the last four years and I am very happy with their performance when paired with our cylinders.
Asphault Gambler- Andial had an ad out they there were limited quantities of 98s (mahle pistons) available for the 3.2 to 3.4 conversion. Might be a good idea to start your search there.
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
100 mm machine in (105 case register) (gives you a 3487cc from the stock 3.2)
102mm machine in (107 case register) (gives you a 3628cc from the stock 3.2)
Both are of billet construction and are available with pistons (JE's provided by EBS racing) for either a 3.0 or 3.2, and are manufactured by LN Engineering. They can be purchased, with the JEs, from EBS. Pelican is also a distributor, but they don't show them on their web site.
Steve- there have been some good discussions lately with regards to JEs over on the Pelican board, and as best we can tell, we seem to be able to attribute the increased wear of the JEs in a mahle cylinder due to the material differences in both piston and cylinder (mainly expansion rates) and p/c clearance. Your input would be greatly appreciated.
As a side note, JEs have gotten alot better as of late, and I personally have not had a single failure in the ~150 sets used in the last four years and I am very happy with their performance when paired with our cylinders.
Asphault Gambler- Andial had an ad out they there were limited quantities of 98s (mahle pistons) available for the 3.2 to 3.4 conversion. Might be a good idea to start your search there.
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
11-05-2004, 09:50 AM
#13
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Charles,
I saw their (Andial's) ad Monday, but are these still 'cast' pistons not forged? Also, do they have increased valve pocket relief for larger than stock cam profile? Mahle has a website but I could not connect after several attempts. The address was correct.
I have decided to go to the 3.4 and keep it simple. I understand that JE has a 'wedge' dome specfically for the larger bores in the SC engines. That promotes better flame travel in a mild bore and comp increases than the standard piston that they offer. IE: 98MM and 9.8:1 -I tend to agree that any more comp or bore size dual plug is the only way to go based on my HD engines of similar config.
There are several wedge dome pistons sets for the HD that addresses this same issue as this combo. Again the piston/combustion chamber/valve angle are VERY close in design to the earlier Porsches.
The problem (IMHO) with the dual plug is not so much machine cost as all the s--t / $$ you have to do to facilitate dual ignition.
Comments and further advice please, Thanks!
I saw their (Andial's) ad Monday, but are these still 'cast' pistons not forged? Also, do they have increased valve pocket relief for larger than stock cam profile? Mahle has a website but I could not connect after several attempts. The address was correct.
I have decided to go to the 3.4 and keep it simple. I understand that JE has a 'wedge' dome specfically for the larger bores in the SC engines. That promotes better flame travel in a mild bore and comp increases than the standard piston that they offer. IE: 98MM and 9.8:1 -I tend to agree that any more comp or bore size dual plug is the only way to go based on my HD engines of similar config.
There are several wedge dome pistons sets for the HD that addresses this same issue as this combo. Again the piston/combustion chamber/valve angle are VERY close in design to the earlier Porsches.
The problem (IMHO) with the dual plug is not so much machine cost as all the s--t / $$ you have to do to facilitate dual ignition.
Comments and further advice please, Thanks!
11-05-2004, 10:06 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
It's unfortuneate that Mahle Motorsports doesn't support us as they have in the past nor do they care to provide support, other than a few outlets, like Andial. It may be best for you to give Andial a ring, since they seem to be the last frontier for anything Mahle. If anyone has attended the PRI show, they know what I mean, just from walking by Mahle's booth. 
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance