notbob

Hey All,

I haven't posted in a while, I was originally looking at getting a 993 but seems to be a bit out of my budget as I want a C2S or a C4S, or a TT(when they drop to half their current price :P).

Found an interesting vehicle:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

I'm driving up to see / test drive it tommorrow @ 2pm, so I'll be able to post some feedback.

Guy is looking for around 19~20k for it, after a PPI of course. This a fair price or high? The auction ended at like $13k, I'm not sure how much more I can get him to come down on price from 19 if at all.

It's a 77' 911 with the wide body kit done to it and a '95 993 3.6L swap into it. Anyone have any idea what a combo like this would weigh? The '77 body looks fairly stock no major lightening done to it, not sure how much heavier the 993 motor is.

The exhaust is an interesting one off, dual tip setup.

What should I look for particularly with this engine swap / body redo? Any major things that *should* have been done that I need to check on.

Transmission is an open diff (doh) 5spd, I'd like to do a 6-spd with limited slip swap into it, parts wise what would that cost and what transmission would I be needing to find? I believe a version of the G50 is like this?

Sorry going to be 1st Porsche, so some questions aren't the brightest yet.
I've done tons of my own work on my other cars including entire engine swaps.

Thanks,
Bob

notbob

Not to be lame and reply to my own post but I did have 1 question...

A '95 993 motor, what grade of gas does it require? The owner has no idea he's always put premium in, if it'll run on '87 that'd be nice but I've had a handful that did great on 87 (my 99 m3), and others that wont barely idle with the stuff (high comp '76 pontiac trans am).

hoosierdaddy

Most people that know far more than me will tell you for that kind of price you can get a much newer car . Now the question is what do you want ? If this car is built right it could be a blast or if built wrong a money pit . Try and find someone with more knowledge of these cars to go with you .
I have 77s and what you're going to look at is damn cool "if it's done right" . Good luck
Jim

JackOlsen

You'd need to have a shop look at a project like that. It could be junk, or it could be a car that's much quicker than a 3000-lb 993.

The transmission is going to need a look, in particular. A '77 transaxle was magnesium (good for weight, bad for leaks) and was not designed with the torque of a 3.6-liter motor in mind. That said, I run a '77 box in my car with a 3.6. There are a few things you can do that will make it work better.

What is it you're looking for in a 911? This could be a very cheap way to get a great-performing 911, or it could be another guy's financial nightmare which he's signing over to you. Without a clear idea of what you're looking for, and a good independent shop to go through the car, it's a crap shoot.

notbob

Some background info: Guy has 2 other porsche projects, car was completed about 4 years ago.

What I'm looking for:
* turbo look
* reliable / higher perf motor (i.e. 993 3.6L)
* Red or Black
* Lightweight as I like "tossable" cars

Things I dislike on this car:
* Non-LSD

What are my trans options for swapping to something with LSD and preferably 6-spd as I tend to put lots of miles on my cars.

I currently have a plethora of cars (4), and looking to ditch 3 or so and get a 911.

How light is a '77? Is the 993 motor heavier? by much?

I definately plan to have a PPI done after I get to drive it / do my own nit picking, any recommendations for a shop in PA to look at it? Near harrisburg preferably.

notbob

Follow up question, to add LSD could I just add the Qualife unit to the current 915?

Seen here:
http://www.coximport.com/store/40-309-140

Or would this lead to premature death of that transmission and just save my money for a G50?

DGaunt

my '76S w/ A/C and 2.7/915 weighed about 2650 on the Glen's scales with a full tank. It wieghs a bit more now as I've installed a Carerra oil cooler. Everything else (eg: wheels, etc.) are OE.

kach22i

This will be interesting, keep us posted.

Stuttgart951

Dougherty Automotive has a pretty good reputation in the area. If you dont mind a 'Gruppe B' car, a 3.6L widebody 77 can be a steal compared to what it cost to build it... but it can also be a nightmare if done poorly.

Have in independant shop check it out - if you like it and they say 'good to go' you can certainly do worse than a lightweight early car with a modern, high output engine.

notbob

Drove the beast today

A few comments:
* Torque... yummy on this car Definately has enough power for a 1st Porsche, took me a minute to get used to the orientation of the clutch pedal (wow is that weird) and the more picky 915 tranny, after about 10 minutes the owner had a thorough grip of the front dash pad as we broke 120mph
* Overall car seemed extremely solid and well done, it had no issues, he drove it 2 hours there, I drove it an hour, and tried to nit pick it to death for another hour looking for problems.
* Paint, looked great, a few chips here and there, I'd prolly add more in the 500mi trip home then he has on there now
* Rust, didn't much of any, when i asked the owner about it, he said he knew of 2 spots... ok apparently porsche ppl are as picky as bmw people as his idea of rust isn't even something I'd notice on an american car :P Was a line of surface rust maybe an inch long and a 1/4 inch thick in the door jam and similar around the passenger side strut tower, was all completely surface.
* Records, yes he has a stack of receipts including the one from the shop that did the install (guy was definately not a do it yourselfer, the receipts show this). Installed cost if I remember correctly was $12k for the motor swap. The stack of receipts do go with the car.
* Stability, was insanely stable, at 100mph i could drive with 1 finger without a problem, tracked very very well.
* Tranny/Clutch, engaged good and fine, but 2nd gear was a bit picky, if not double clutched 2nd wasn't one to want you to get into it. Longer I drove more this became 2nd nature again.

Questions:
* Are power window motors expensive for this year? The windows are a tad slow, I would assume either wiring not providing enough juice or just dying window motors.
* How much is a headliner? (where to source), as it's currently white and rest of interior is black, so I'd want a lightweight black headliner / sun visors.
* He's using 1" spacers on the back wheels right now, I worry of those possibly causing issues? Everything I've ever heard about spacers was that they were a bad idea.
* A/C, he's using the 993 R134A compressor and there's a aftermarket a/c unit that kind of sits under the dash, not sure how to explain but it runs the whole length and has the a/c controls and vents in it, is this common/good or bad, there were the older HVAC control panel there but he said he never uses it as car is fair weather only and the a/c has it's own controls.
* Oil Filter, the main large one is hard to get out without moving around the compressor as the lines block it's removal, any reason a remote oil filter kit would be a bad idea? (I use these for my V8 swaps in S10 Blazers as otherwise you'd need to grow a 6ft arm that bends 6 ways to sunday to reach it).

Overall I found nothing I disliked about the car other then the price does feel somewhat steep to me but I'm new to the Porsche world so I'm open to opinions, he's sticking firm so far to his 19k. I loved driving it I had originally thought the car would need a stereo, he has some junk cd player in there but I didn't even turn that on, was no point, listening to that 3.6L was much better. I can see why a 911 is the drivers car The car is definately not concourse or 120% perfect, I mean you could nit pick silly crap all day, but I'm a driver not a show queen, the bits I care about were all working tiptop and was loving every minute of it, I dug around the wiring, looked very cleanly done (thank god!!!!). Floor boards are all original (yes I pulled up pretty much all of the carpet and was looking like crazy for any sign of replacement there.

So is $19k reasonable for this car assuming a PPI reveals its mechanicals to be in as good a shape as they have demonstrated to me? Anyone know of other cars for sale i should be checking out? Preferably in the mid-west and sub-30k price tag (I'm not poor but i"m not rich and till some of the other 4 start selling money is tighter), black or red only plz, no concourse or 100% orig cars (i refuse to mod a concourse/all original car).


Struttgart951:
Do you have a phone # for dougherty Automotive? And anyone in particular to schedule a PPI with there or just check with service?
Not 100% sure on the specs of the different 'Gruppes' yet so no idea on the Gruppe B part.

Only issues found:
* Oil, engine seemed perfectly leak free (wtf thought they all leaked??), but I guess theres an oil canister of some kind in the passenger side of the rear engine compartment where the larger oil filter is, this was leaking some, he claims its from over filling it with oil, I can't disprove or confirm that rumor so someone please advise. Didn't seem major but like I said I spent an hour combing through this thing.
* Power windows are slow
* Front carpeting is missing / so is trim piece to cover up the wiring panel up there
* Still using front & rear torsion bars, aren't these bad for weight / handling? the shocks are newer bilsteins.

Sorry for the long post, I had major car trouble on the way home, took a 14~15 hour trip into a 21 hour trip... ppl suck in PA sometimes :P took 40 minutes to flag someone down on the turnpike to help jump the car, and we even had cables in hand And no tire place had a tire our size, but 1 place did but the guy didnt' come on shift till midnight... ugghhh...

DGaunt

The A/C you describe was a Dealer-installed option in that year. It is a York system, and is very strong except for the compressor, which has already been replaced. I was told to keep the other hardware as long as I could because it is stronger than the currently available replacements. I upgraded my compressor some years ago, and changed over to R134 and the system works great. Far more airflow than the SC style mono-vent.

Seems like you did a good job of inspecting the car. Let us know how the PPI goes.

notbob

Good to hear that it's a good A/C unit

Is a '77 like this worth $19k though?

He had it up on ebay which is how I found it, the ebay auction ended at like $13kish. This is his first time listing it so it's only been up for sale for like a week, should I try to wait him out on time or anything I should ask for to be done for that $19k?

I really like the car, but I don't want to pay $19k for something to find I go to resell in 6 months if something happened that I had to and find I can only get $13k for it.

Love to hear some opinions on value

Also, is there any place that is cheaper for rates on buying porsche's for loans and for insurance?

I'm 23 with not a perfect driving record in regards to speed, like any of us that love 2 door red sports cars don't have speeding tickets I can't help it if the rest of the world doesn't like sports cars, 100mph is rather mild.


Is that torsion bar suspension cost effective to replace since it feels in good shape or keep it till it dies? Seems like a coil over conversion is like $4k.

Trader220

Where are you having the PPi done?

notbob

PPI location is still to be decided, one member before suggested a place, haven't gotten a response on a number for them, trying to locate best places in the relative area for one.

JP911

All 911s were based on torsion bar suspensions until 1989 when the 964 was introduced. It's true that coil springs are more "advanced", but the torsion bars perform well and very few 911 owners convert to coils springs (a fairly expensive undertaking). A car like that is unique and if he waits, the right buyer will probably come along and give him his asking price. Regarding the spacers, if they are spacers with longer wheel studs installed, then there are no stability issues; all widebody 911s (pre-89?) came from the factory with spacers.