Inherited my dad's 1980 Targa SC and need some help
09-08-2023, 04:24 AM
#46
Adding an additional question that I forgot to ask earlier.
How are the headlights on these cars? I know that they're from the 80s, so I'm not expecting amazing. But curious how they hold up today. Are there any OEM-looking upgrades to LEDs or anything out there?
How are the headlights on these cars? I know that they're from the 80s, so I'm not expecting amazing. But curious how they hold up today. Are there any OEM-looking upgrades to LEDs or anything out there?
09-08-2023, 06:58 AM
#47
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Headlights are fine, just not matching current vehicle standards.
This upgrade kit changes the headlight wiring so the current doesn't need to go to the dash switch and back, instead using relays up front. The only thing I don't like about that kit is that the instructions direct to grab power from the battery lug, adding one more wire at that point. I would grab power elsewhere.
The relay kit will increase the brightness because of less wiring resistive loss.
My plan is instead to populate the two vehicle's empty relay locations w/ one relay for low beam and one for high beam, making my own kit, but having the end result looking like OEM wiring. If visible appearance isn't a concern, then the JWEST Engineering kit is fine and a nice improvement.
This upgrade kit changes the headlight wiring so the current doesn't need to go to the dash switch and back, instead using relays up front. The only thing I don't like about that kit is that the instructions direct to grab power from the battery lug, adding one more wire at that point. I would grab power elsewhere.
The relay kit will increase the brightness because of less wiring resistive loss.
My plan is instead to populate the two vehicle's empty relay locations w/ one relay for low beam and one for high beam, making my own kit, but having the end result looking like OEM wiring. If visible appearance isn't a concern, then the JWEST Engineering kit is fine and a nice improvement.
Last edited by wingless; 09-08-2023 at 07:00 AM.
09-08-2023, 02:01 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
A few thoughts about your project
Great post, thank you. They're going to have a look at the studs. They got me underneath the car today and showed me where it's leaking from. I green-lighted them starting work on the motor, so they'll start poking at it a bit. Should know something on that in the next week or two.
I'm making a note about the oil to discuss with them.
Regarding the port and polish, I talked to them today about that and they said that they'll discuss it with the head guy. Apparently he's a friend of the shop and they think he'll cut a nice deal on it if I want it done. I told them to quote it. Can't hurt to ask.
Not terribly long before he put the car away in the garage, my father had a new clutch put in the car. If I recall the story correctly, he "lost" it in midtown Manhattan one afternoon and drove the car out of the city back to his home in White Plains. He said that he clutch-less shifted it until he had to come to a stop, would pull it into neutral, turn the car off, throw it in first, and start it, taking right off again. It's how he handled the toll booths. Not the smartest thing to do probably, but it beat waiting hours for the tow truck and getting it towed to his shop. I bet the clutch that's in the car doesn't have more than 15k miles on it. It should be good to go. While I'd have them explore it a bit as a sort of preventative thing, the bill is already racing up and I'd like to avoid what I can.
They say the shifter coupling is in pretty bad shape and that it "won't shift for long". My buddy has a garage with lifts about 1000 feet from this shop though, so I'll probably get the car there somehow and tackle little issues like the coupling since I get the impression it's not a huge job.
I'll need to look up how to test the A/C system as you suggest. I'm familiar with searching for vacuum leaks, but I've never messed around with an A/C system. Something I'll definitely explore.
That's good news. As long as there's a guide out there, I can probably handle it with a buddy. I had visions of some proprietary tools being involved and causing headaches.
Thank you for your kind thoughts. He was a great man, and I miss him dearly.
I'm sure there is a local PCA here; Brumos tended to attract enthusiasts with everything they touched. I just haven't had a chance to really look into that. I do have a few friends with newer 911s, however. One of them has a 997.1 GT3RS, a 991 GT3RS, a GT3 Cup Car, and a GT2 Cup Car. And an entire garage with lifts and all the tools to keep them running right for his track sessions. He lives a pretty amazing life, and has been helpful with mine so far.
I'm making a note about the oil to discuss with them.
Regarding the port and polish, I talked to them today about that and they said that they'll discuss it with the head guy. Apparently he's a friend of the shop and they think he'll cut a nice deal on it if I want it done. I told them to quote it. Can't hurt to ask.
Not terribly long before he put the car away in the garage, my father had a new clutch put in the car. If I recall the story correctly, he "lost" it in midtown Manhattan one afternoon and drove the car out of the city back to his home in White Plains. He said that he clutch-less shifted it until he had to come to a stop, would pull it into neutral, turn the car off, throw it in first, and start it, taking right off again. It's how he handled the toll booths. Not the smartest thing to do probably, but it beat waiting hours for the tow truck and getting it towed to his shop. I bet the clutch that's in the car doesn't have more than 15k miles on it. It should be good to go. While I'd have them explore it a bit as a sort of preventative thing, the bill is already racing up and I'd like to avoid what I can.
They say the shifter coupling is in pretty bad shape and that it "won't shift for long". My buddy has a garage with lifts about 1000 feet from this shop though, so I'll probably get the car there somehow and tackle little issues like the coupling since I get the impression it's not a huge job.
I'll need to look up how to test the A/C system as you suggest. I'm familiar with searching for vacuum leaks, but I've never messed around with an A/C system. Something I'll definitely explore.
That's good news. As long as there's a guide out there, I can probably handle it with a buddy. I had visions of some proprietary tools being involved and causing headaches.
Thank you for your kind thoughts. He was a great man, and I miss him dearly.
I'm sure there is a local PCA here; Brumos tended to attract enthusiasts with everything they touched. I just haven't had a chance to really look into that. I do have a few friends with newer 911s, however. One of them has a 997.1 GT3RS, a 991 GT3RS, a GT3 Cup Car, and a GT2 Cup Car. And an entire garage with lifts and all the tools to keep them running right for his track sessions. He lives a pretty amazing life, and has been helpful with mine so far.
In our area most radiator shops will clean out gas tanks fairly reasonably. I didn’t see that in the trail but it might be a good thing to try before jumping in to a new tank.
And finally, our SC came with Hankook’s on it. I’m sure plenty will laugh but they aren’t too bad, are about 8 years old with about 3000 miles on them. I don’t drive any of our Porsches hard much anymore, and with 4 to choose from we don’t go far. This car will be leaving the fleet first so I’ll let the next steward choose his tires.
And the shifter and shifter coupling are really easy, with the car on the ground and parts will cost you less than $150 even if you need replace all of the plastic parts. You’ll need a bench vise and an assortment of sockets for the coupler.
Hope this helps, good luck with the project, value is subjected, but if it were my Dad’s car, it would be Priceless!
09-09-2023, 09:07 PM
#49
New topic. Talk to me about cams please.
The top end of the motor is being pulled apart as we speak, and the head is going to go off to the machine shop. I’ve asked for a quote for porting and polishing it, and I’m not sure where I’m going to end up on that. But it occurred to me that since I’m already throwing on heat exchangers/headers and a new exhaust and might have that head work done and that the cams are pretty accessible at the moment, it might make sense to consider doing something there. I know this is the dangerous “while we’re at it…” syndrome, but I can’t help it.
I’ve done some VERY cursory reading on this and as I understand it, there are a few options for cams. There are ready-made ones or you can have the ones in the car “ground” or otherwise modified to a different spec.
I’ve read about SC “sport” cams, 964 cams, and an assortment of others. Most of it is somewhat gibberish to me.
I also read that the cams will also only truly thrive if you up the compression by swapping pistons. That’s probably not something I’m interested in. I have to draw the line somewhere; I’m just trying to find where that line for me is, so I’m exploring options.
I figure that with like 964 spec cams, the ported and polished head, and the headers/exhaust, the car should see a little bump in power and would really purr. I know it would probably be more inefficient and without the different pistons, it might not reach the potential those mods could make otherwise.
I also don’t know how the CIS would play with this stuff, since I don’t plan on going to carbs or EFI at the moment.
I’m just on an information gathering exercise here.
The top end of the motor is being pulled apart as we speak, and the head is going to go off to the machine shop. I’ve asked for a quote for porting and polishing it, and I’m not sure where I’m going to end up on that. But it occurred to me that since I’m already throwing on heat exchangers/headers and a new exhaust and might have that head work done and that the cams are pretty accessible at the moment, it might make sense to consider doing something there. I know this is the dangerous “while we’re at it…” syndrome, but I can’t help it.
I’ve done some VERY cursory reading on this and as I understand it, there are a few options for cams. There are ready-made ones or you can have the ones in the car “ground” or otherwise modified to a different spec.
I’ve read about SC “sport” cams, 964 cams, and an assortment of others. Most of it is somewhat gibberish to me.
I also read that the cams will also only truly thrive if you up the compression by swapping pistons. That’s probably not something I’m interested in. I have to draw the line somewhere; I’m just trying to find where that line for me is, so I’m exploring options.
I figure that with like 964 spec cams, the ported and polished head, and the headers/exhaust, the car should see a little bump in power and would really purr. I know it would probably be more inefficient and without the different pistons, it might not reach the potential those mods could make otherwise.
I also don’t know how the CIS would play with this stuff, since I don’t plan on going to carbs or EFI at the moment.
I’m just on an information gathering exercise here.
Last edited by david05111; 09-09-2023 at 09:09 PM.
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Tmistry (09-12-2023)
09-11-2023, 10:21 AM
#51
Team Owner
New topic. Talk to me about cams please.
The top end of the motor is being pulled apart as we speak, and the head is going to go off to the machine shop. I’ve asked for a quote for porting and polishing it, and I’m not sure where I’m going to end up on that. But it occurred to me that since I’m already throwing on heat exchangers/headers and a new exhaust and might have that head work done and that the cams are pretty accessible at the moment, it might make sense to consider doing something there. I know this is the dangerous “while we’re at it…” syndrome, but I can’t help it.
I’ve done some VERY cursory reading on this and as I understand it, there are a few options for cams. There are ready-made ones or you can have the ones in the car “ground” or otherwise modified to a different spec.
I’ve read about SC “sport” cams, 964 cams, and an assortment of others. Most of it is somewhat gibberish to me.
I also read that the cams will also only truly thrive if you up the compression by swapping pistons. That’s probably not something I’m interested in. I have to draw the line somewhere; I’m just trying to find where that line for me is, so I’m exploring options.
I figure that with like 964 spec cams, the ported and polished head, and the headers/exhaust, the car should see a little bump in power and would really purr. I know it would probably be more inefficient and without the different pistons, it might not reach the potential those mods could make otherwise.
I also don’t know how the CIS would play with this stuff, since I don’t plan on going to carbs or EFI at the moment.
I’m just on an information gathering exercise here.
The top end of the motor is being pulled apart as we speak, and the head is going to go off to the machine shop. I’ve asked for a quote for porting and polishing it, and I’m not sure where I’m going to end up on that. But it occurred to me that since I’m already throwing on heat exchangers/headers and a new exhaust and might have that head work done and that the cams are pretty accessible at the moment, it might make sense to consider doing something there. I know this is the dangerous “while we’re at it…” syndrome, but I can’t help it.
I’ve done some VERY cursory reading on this and as I understand it, there are a few options for cams. There are ready-made ones or you can have the ones in the car “ground” or otherwise modified to a different spec.
I’ve read about SC “sport” cams, 964 cams, and an assortment of others. Most of it is somewhat gibberish to me.
I also read that the cams will also only truly thrive if you up the compression by swapping pistons. That’s probably not something I’m interested in. I have to draw the line somewhere; I’m just trying to find where that line for me is, so I’m exploring options.
I figure that with like 964 spec cams, the ported and polished head, and the headers/exhaust, the car should see a little bump in power and would really purr. I know it would probably be more inefficient and without the different pistons, it might not reach the potential those mods could make otherwise.
I also don’t know how the CIS would play with this stuff, since I don’t plan on going to carbs or EFI at the moment.
I’m just on an information gathering exercise here.
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Tmistry (09-12-2023)
09-11-2023, 04:57 PM
#52
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I bookmarked this thread because there is so much good information here, including additional links. But there is no overwhelming consensus on the best cams for CIS.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ce-advice.html
NIGHTRACE (William Knight) and iCarp are very highly regarded, don't discount their advice.
Mark
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...ce-advice.html
NIGHTRACE (William Knight) and iCarp are very highly regarded, don't discount their advice.
Mark
09-12-2023, 03:10 AM
#53
UPDATE
Stopped by the shop today to get a bit of clarification as to which heat exchanger part number I needed to order for the car. That was easily resolved. I also had a look at the work they've been doing. The engine is almost completely torn apart. There are parts laying across 2-3 tables. Cam shafts, rockers, pistons, you name it. Also saw the broken head studs.
I got some other rather unfortunate news while I was there. The CIS system is locked up and requires repair and service. They estimate the repair will cost around $2k on top of what's being done right now. The owner of the shop and I had a cordial and productive discussion about what we should do with the motor. His suggestion, for better or worse, is that I get out of the CIS as soon as possible. He referenced another car that was sitting there which had the same issue last year and was serviced, only to return and be in for repair once more.
His recommendation is to take the $2k and instead move to a carb or EFI conversion. I find the latter somewhat more preferable, but he says that the conversion kit they normally use for these is out of stock and is usually done in small batches. They don't know when they will be available again. The options at present seem to be to fix the CIS system and risk it malfunctioning again if I don't drive the car regularly, converting to carbs (PMO is the suggestion), or waiting for the EFI kits to become available again. Not an ideal situation to be in. It would seem that I'm looking at another $2000-8000 or so to deal with the injection system.
I'm going to give it a lot of thought. In an ideal world, I think I'd convert to EFI. The conversion kit comes with a generic map and they have a relationship with a local tuner to tighten the map up a bit. While carbs are a bit alluring, I worry about the tinkering that might be involved in such a setup over time. As for the CIS system, I know it would work for now, and it's the cheapest route. But I have read over and over again over the years how much of pain in the neck it can be, and that does concern me a bit in the longer term.
Anyway, just a brief update. Work is proceeding, and I have some more decisions to make.
Stopped by the shop today to get a bit of clarification as to which heat exchanger part number I needed to order for the car. That was easily resolved. I also had a look at the work they've been doing. The engine is almost completely torn apart. There are parts laying across 2-3 tables. Cam shafts, rockers, pistons, you name it. Also saw the broken head studs.
I got some other rather unfortunate news while I was there. The CIS system is locked up and requires repair and service. They estimate the repair will cost around $2k on top of what's being done right now. The owner of the shop and I had a cordial and productive discussion about what we should do with the motor. His suggestion, for better or worse, is that I get out of the CIS as soon as possible. He referenced another car that was sitting there which had the same issue last year and was serviced, only to return and be in for repair once more.
His recommendation is to take the $2k and instead move to a carb or EFI conversion. I find the latter somewhat more preferable, but he says that the conversion kit they normally use for these is out of stock and is usually done in small batches. They don't know when they will be available again. The options at present seem to be to fix the CIS system and risk it malfunctioning again if I don't drive the car regularly, converting to carbs (PMO is the suggestion), or waiting for the EFI kits to become available again. Not an ideal situation to be in. It would seem that I'm looking at another $2000-8000 or so to deal with the injection system.
I'm going to give it a lot of thought. In an ideal world, I think I'd convert to EFI. The conversion kit comes with a generic map and they have a relationship with a local tuner to tighten the map up a bit. While carbs are a bit alluring, I worry about the tinkering that might be involved in such a setup over time. As for the CIS system, I know it would work for now, and it's the cheapest route. But I have read over and over again over the years how much of pain in the neck it can be, and that does concern me a bit in the longer term.
Anyway, just a brief update. Work is proceeding, and I have some more decisions to make.
09-12-2023, 10:59 AM
#54
Team Owner
there is absolutely nothing wrong with CIS and they dont " lock up" whatever that means.. Yes they can be finicky to set up and can be a little temperamental if you have weather extremes, but i have had absolutely no issues with mine in over 15 years. Its up to you but to me , originality is important. By doing this change you make the shops job easier in my mind.
I am sue these are good systems, but if i was going to buy a classic 911 and yours had a converted fueling system , i wouldn't even look at it ...... just my 2c.
I am sue these are good systems, but if i was going to buy a classic 911 and yours had a converted fueling system , i wouldn't even look at it ...... just my 2c.
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wingless (09-12-2023)
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wingless (09-12-2023)
09-12-2023, 01:54 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
@david05111 I've done some homework on fuel systems as I'm doing a full engine rebuild on my restomod project and need to decide between sticking with EFI or converting to carbs. Carbs have a lot of appeal but I was concerned about having to adjust them often. After speaking with people who've had them for a while, my conclusion is that much of it boils down to how well the system is tuned after install. Properly installed carbs shouldn't require any attention. They'll do great together with the 3.4 upgrade with cambs etc. My suggestion is that you first decide which direction you want to take with the car then decide how far you want to mod the engine.
09-12-2023, 03:52 PM
#57
there is absolutely nothing wrong with CIS and they dont " lock up" whatever that means.. Yes they can be finicky to set up and can be a little temperamental if you have weather extremes, but i have had absolutely no issues with mine in over 15 years. Its up to you but to me , originality is important. By doing this change you make the shops job easier in my mind.
I am sue these are good systems, but if i was going to buy a classic 911 and yours had a converted fueling system , i wouldn't even look at it ...... just my 2c.
I am sue these are good systems, but if i was going to buy a classic 911 and yours had a converted fueling system , i wouldn't even look at it ...... just my 2c.
Originality is important to me as well, to some extent. But it's never going to be a concours car and it's never going to be sold; it's an heirloom. I've also made some modifications to it already (new exhaust and heat exchangers, probably a new steering wheel, new carpet, etc.). So it won't be totally original, despite being numbers-matching and having original paint.
I'd certainly like to save money if I can. If I could make it more reliable and give it some more power, that would be great. But I need to do a fair amount more reading on it, that's for sure.
09-12-2023, 03:56 PM
#58
It's fair to say they've suggested on more than one occasion now that I get out of the CIS. They're not the only people I've heard that from, however. I think the guys truly believe in what they're suggesting, but I'm not sure they're really pushing EFI really hard on it since they can't even get the parts to the conversion at the moment. If they could, it might be a different situation.
09-12-2023, 04:55 PM
#59
If they are referencing the pop off valve in the air filter, that is an add on safety to prevent the airbox from exploding and has nothing to do with the operability of the CIS. Just replace it is a very low cost item.
https://www.partsgeek.com/ss/?i=1&ss...+pop+off+valve
Are you somewhere you can talk to a PCA member who has an older car?
By the way I think Dansk bought SSI.
https://www.partsgeek.com/ss/?i=1&ss...+pop+off+valve
Are you somewhere you can talk to a PCA member who has an older car?
By the way I think Dansk bought SSI.
Last edited by rstarga; 09-12-2023 at 04:57 PM.
09-12-2023, 10:51 PM
#60
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If they are referencing the pop off valve in the air filter, that is an add on safety to prevent the airbox from exploding and has nothing to do with the operability of the CIS. Just replace it is a very low cost item.
https://www.partsgeek.com/ss/?i=1&ss...+pop+off+valve
Are you somewhere you can talk to a PCA member who has an older car?
By the way I think Dansk bought SSI.
https://www.partsgeek.com/ss/?i=1&ss...+pop+off+valve
Are you somewhere you can talk to a PCA member who has an older car?
By the way I think Dansk bought SSI.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...lp-please.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...g-service.html
The other component that will likely need a rebuild is the warm up regulator (WUR). And you may need new injectors.
Two good places for rebuilds are CIS Flowtech in Alabama and Fuel Injection Corp in California. Not sure of the turnaround time, could be long. They may have an exchange program where they take yours as a core. These guys are active on Pelican and do stock the parts: https://www.rarelyl8.com/home.html. You are looking at about $1,000 for both.
Mark